Talk: Community Portal/Leaving

"For all things change, making way for each other.

"

―Euripides

• Archive #1
• Overview of reasons for the move

GDFL

Danny "Monorail Guy" Toughpigs said above that, and I quote:

Wikis on Wikia operate under GFDL, a free license that allows people to reuse the content in any way, as long as it's under the same license and links back to the original source. Wikia provides complete database dumps for anybody who wants them, so it's easy for people to move the content somewhere else if they want to. The moved content should link back to the original wiki, using a template like this.

The GDFL itself can be seen on this Wikipedia page.

The relevant sections, as far as I can see, are Sections 1 ("APPLICABILITY AND DEFINITIONS), 2 ("VERBATIM COPYING") and 4 ("MODIFICATIONS").

I've also looked at wikipedia:Wikipedia:Copyrights#Reusers.27_rights_and_obligations for a simpler version (since Wikipedia & Wikia both use the GDFL, the requirements are identical).

Frankly, my head's spinning, but three things leap to the eye:

1. There is no specific, explicit requirement to link to the original page (transformers.wikia.com/wiki/PAGENAME). There are specific requirements to make to licence your modifications under the GFDL, make that clear & link to it; make a "Transparent copy" (machine readable, copyable by other users) available; and to acknowledge the authorship of the article. Wikipedia suggests that one way to "partially fulfill" the latter is to "provid[e] a conspicuous direct link back to the Wikipedia article", but also notes that they reserve the right to delete the page & authorship history, and that wouldn't be enough in such a case. It suggests that an alternative is to preserve the page history, and to list the five most prominent authors (all, if <5) on the "title page"/top of the document.
2. If you do, answers.com - a prominent content aggregator, including from Wikipedia, has their notice in small letters in the page footer.
3. If it is necessary, it may only be necessary to do it on the history page.

Someone else's reading would be appreciated, to see if I'm talking absolute gibberish. - SanityOrMadness talk page 17:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Worth noting: we'll be importing the entire revision history, not just the current status of the page. So we don't have to link to anywhere to reflect that; it'll be on the wiki itself.

I definitely like the idea of putting it on the history page-- our original thought was to put it in the footer, like your answers.com example-- but that works even better. --Suki Brits 06:48, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Answers.com, however, is taking the content wholesale and representing it. And they were nto the authors of it.

Between us, the current TT1 userbase has the ORIGINAL rights to about 90% of the text on the wiki (the other 10% having been written by incidental people unaware of the move, and Rotty.) We could take those articles and leave without ever having to worry about GDFL-- just like McFeely ported the articles he wrote for Wikipedia about Cyclonus and Devastator over to here. He owned the full rights to them INDEPENDENT of their GDFL thing.

IMAGES include a 'auto uploaded by script...' in the page history when imported. I don't remember if normal pages do. If they DO... then we could probably modify the import script to specifically say Wikia.com, which would satisfy the legal obligation. (I'll check with Suki.) -Derik 17:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Normal pages don't, because there wouldn't be anywhere for the script to include it. The entire normal edit history is imported, so you get all the edit summaries. And... for what it's worth, unfortunately, I would imagine we would NEED the permission of that other 10% to get away with not mentioning Wikia somewhere, and unfortunately, that's a huge clusterfuck and not worth it. Especially since the fine print giving mention (not even a link) to our original host would be sufficient. --Suki Brits 03:48, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

AARGH!(continured)

Are the ads supposed to actually invisibly extend over the article so when you hover over the actual ad it becomes larger for more details? Which also makes it so when I am on, say, the omega supreme (g1) page, and I want to click the, Omega Supreme (disambiguation) link, I cant because it thinks I am clicking in the "adobe flash player 9" box that is over it. --Hammerstrike 00:18, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

It is totally time for us to GTFO. --Sntint 00:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I downloaded Adblock Plus when the main page started recommending it (Thanks, guys!) and that's made my life a lot easier, but a somewhat obscure Firefox plugin shouldn't be a prerequisite for viewing the Wiki's pages as they were intended to be viewed. After reading through this whole ongoing argument, all I can say is "Yep, it's time to start packing our bags." As everyone else has noted, the only problem is making sure that we retain name recognition and that the community as a whole is well aware of the shift.--Inevitable Betrayal 03:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Sitenotice is the traditional way - although I don't know where/how it appears under Monaco. - SanityOrMadness talk page 13:15, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

i really think we should go now, most pages i go to now have multiple identical ads at the top! this makes things bad because they shove the rest of the page down so if the text loads before the ads (like on my computer) you can start reading then loose your place when the text jumps down! its been like this for a long time but not as bad as it is now! someone hurry up and get the new server set up!81.108.233.59 09:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

It gets worse...

Greetings. The wiki seems to be collapsing in on itself now. Whatever page I go on, except this one, an error window pops up saying that the internet cannot display the page and it aborts the operation, causing the page to go onto the "This page is not working" thing and I have to keep refreshing it, only to get the error box again and the whole process happens again. What in the world is going on? Evilgidgit 12:02, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I would blame this on whatever retarded ads Wikia are running for your IP/location. Where I am, I'm not encountering annoying ads, but I hear North Americans are getting the worst of it, being hit with animated, singing-dancing ones. And Wikia has no control over who submits what ad. They have to wait for us to report ads to them. --FFN 13:28, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I had the same problem a few days ago - at which point I said to myself, "the hell with Internet Explorer," and decided to install Firefox. - Chris McFeely 13:43, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

What the heck were you doing on Internet Explorer? As a geek you should be using Firefox or an alternative by default! (I'm forcing myself not to install Adblock, though). --FFN 15:18, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for calling me a geek. My computer and Firefox don't seem to like eachother, so I use Internet Explorer instead. Evilgidgit 11:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

He doesn't mean that anyone who uses IE as a geek. Just the opposite, in fact. He's calling McFeely a geek because he is one (in the best possible way), and any self-respecting geek would not use IE unless absolutely necessary. Which I, a geek who's dabbled in website-construction, wholly agree with. - Jackpot 17:27, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that's what I meant. IE is painful and full of holes. My college's computers all use IE and navigating Wikia's wonderful new layout was simply a charming experience on it. --FFN 21:41, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

i only just expirienced that and when i clicked refresh it was fixed so maybe it isnt collapsing for everyone81.108.233.59 16:59, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm having the same problems as Evilgidgit is having. At first, I thought the site had been shut down and started up elsewhere. When I start at the front page, I quickly go to my watchlist in hopes of avoiding the abort message. However, I eventually get it, for which I either refresh the page or move on to another site. I'm too lazy to switch over to Firefox; besides, I don't like change. Sue me. If and when you guys move, please let us know. - Zadok Rox 03:10, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Zadok Rox, are you still getting this error window? We made a change yesterday that should have fixed it, and yours is the first report I've seen since then. Can you let me know if you still have the issue? (and anyone else of course) Thanks -- sannse (talk) 10:18, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

It's fixed! The error window has gone! Thank you Sannse!Evilgidgit 18:26, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've checked out several pages and no error messages (I was speaking of pass experiences and didn't realize that anything had been done yesterday). Praise the Lord! Thanks, Sannse and crew. - Zadok Rox 01:53, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm relatively new to the wiki, but I hate the idea of anything approaching Scorched Earth. It seems to me that abandoning the wiki is the best option. It almost certainly WILL get taken over by 'the wolves', at least in the short run. Eventually it'll probably be taken over by new admins who do care but have a differing vision, but is that such a bad thing? Encyclopedia Brittanica can coexist with Wikipedia, why can't the fun and humorous TF wiki coexist with the (possible eventual) humorless one? I don't think that any attempt to blank & lock the pages will work in the long run, nor will it help to drive traffic to the new site. Google's search algorithms are very efficient - if the Transformers community starts linking to the new wiki, Google will quickly catch on and update their rankings accordingly. (I used to work for Yahoo! Search Marketing, I know what I'm talking about here.) Long story short, I think that more competing websites are a good thing for the fandom at large. Jimsorenson 06:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Perspective from someone outside

Let me share some thoughts... Not an admin but please don't flame me!!!

1. Who really owns this space in Wikia? It's still Wikia. Sure, you guys created the content but this space in the server is still Wikia's. It's like renting an apartment (only we don't have to pay anything) and making the modifications we want. Now, if you leave and delete everything, it's still in the deletion log for new admins. You probably left the apartment but the paint on the part of the wall where your picture used to hang will look cleaner compared to the rest of the wall. Anyhow, will Wikia policy allow a scorch earth approach whence you move?
2. This place will still be called Teletraan 1 as site name. If you feel some proprietary fondness for the name, I bet there's going to be a problem if you move to another server and somebody else is granted admin status and takes over this Wikia wiki. What then? A word war? Will the new admin have the power to change the name to Cybertron Archives or something else?
3. Just how bad is the idea of two competing Transformers wikis? You are already competing with the Transformers project in Wikipedia already! Yeah, Wikipedia can be filled stuck ups but just reminding you guys. On the other hand, you can join forces with another Transformers wiki but you will both have to agree on how best to approach the wiki. Kind of like the DC Database Project and Marvel Database.
4. Anything like that image with Optimus giving the finger to Wikia is shameful! Wikia might have botched up some stuffs but in my eyes, it reeks of ungratefulness. If it weren't for Wikia, this wiki would never have grown to the monster size it is now. Think of them as your landlord except they never asked a dime of you. Where do you get a landlord like that? And what landlord hasn't acted like an ass once in a while?
5. I have yet to see the animated ads that some have spoke of. Then again, I live outside of US so I can't say for sure how the ads affect by location.

I'm more inclined that you stay with Wikia. Sure, the ads are annoying and sometimes messes up with your layout but I just don't think it's reason enough to leave. But that's just me. --Destron Commander 08:54, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I can't speak for most of your points. But for point 4 regarding the picture of Prime giving the finger, that was posted by a relatively new member who was giving us some headaches elsewhere on the wiki, so he or she isn't representative of this Wiki. All of the regular contributors who replied agreed that despite our anger at Wikia's changes, posting such a picture would be childish, offensive and puerile. So we're not doing that, and if and when we do move, we'll prevent people from trying to do so.

By the way, since you're an outside person... does working for Wikia pay well? ;-) --FFN 16:34, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd also like to add that a "scorched earth" policy is not what we're doing when we leave. Do people just read nothing but the first post of every section started by some crazy dude, or what? --ItsWalky 16:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, crazy dudes gain attention by being crazy. I'm inclined to delete that stupid 'finger' picture so people don't think we're all dicks. --FFN 19:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

So, um... what are we doing? There's been talk of various options, with scorched-earth being one of them. I think it's perfectly fair for people to still be arguing against it because it appears to be just as valid a plan as any other that's been mentioned. Which is to say, half-baked and superficially explained. Is there some well-thought-out solution that hasn't been spelled out here yet? - Jackpot 22:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikia can revert anything we do, so "scorched earth" isn't a viable option regardless of our personal feelings. In the end, it's merely a petty act (a petty act that would take us days...) which accomplishes nothing. Pages will probably be left as they are. Soon, the place will be overrun with weeds and trolls. We will just have to be proactive in advertising the move. --ItsWalky 22:10, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I can buy that (like I said, every actual plan I've seen discussed is half-baked anyway). If you want people to stop talking about scorched-earth, I think it would help to state more often the viability of simply doing nothing. - Jackpot 22:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

A few problems with your claims.

1. We weren't at Wikia to begin with. We were originally with Wikicities. The old landlord was great. The new one's beeen nothing but trouble.
2. Wikia holds no rights to the name "Teletraan 1". If Wikia wants the rights, they'll have to talk to Hasbro's legal dept. Also, there ate two "Allspark" message boards. The Allspark was originally on ezBoards. When the site grew too big, the owner moved the forums to a different location. The ezboards allspark still exists, but it is mostly nothing bus spam posts since the community that built it moved to the new locarion. --FortMax 17:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Isn't Wikia just Wikicities with a new name (and some investment)? Unless I am misremembering, Wikicities changed its name to Wikia in March 2006 around the same time Walky and Suki were installed as admins, no? --FFN 19:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

The name issue is an interesting one, since it's been brought up before that "Teletraan I" isn't the most appropriate name for a repository of all knowledge in Transformerdom. The only reason to keep the TT1 name is, I think, to try to delegitimize the Wikia site. If we want to make a truly clean break, we could call the new wiki "The Underbase" or "Vector Sigma" or something. If anyone can come up with a pun as clever as "Wookieepedia," I'll give them a shiny quarter. - Jackpot 22:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Witwikipedia, duh! --ItsWalky 22:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Derik beat you to that months ago. - Jackpot 22:34, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

That's why I said "duh," silly. --ItsWalky 03:03, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

You misspelled "Witwickypedia!"

VENGENCE! Except I've already tweaked Walky once this weekend.

Nonetheless... *shakes fist* -Derik 05:04, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

It could only be bad for us to have a name change, especially under these circumstances. I hope we can avoid it by any means necessary. --Thylacine 2000 16:07, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Rename THIS place immediately? - SanityOrMadness talk page 23:52, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

That seems ideal, if we could get it to stick. - Jackpot 02:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

i think that scorched earth would be good because it would show we were angry at wikia and from what i've read if we did do that the images wouldn't be coming back so if wikia undeleted the pages no one would want to go to the wikia version since it has no images81.157.181.72 14:18, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

There are no technical means that you can use to achieve this. "Deleted" images are not really deleted, just like articles. That didn't use to be the case, but it changed over a year ago. All they have to do is move things back to a point before the activity occurred, and remove all your deleting (or editing) privileges. --GreenReaper^(talk) 17:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

More changes to the ad format

Looks like Wikia's made some changes again. I don't see any ads at all when I'm logged in, so yay for that, I guess. But when I'm NOT logged in, the ads have become EVEN FUCKIER. They screw up the intro-layout even MORE, and now they're also appearing deeper in the articles. I've taken a screencap in IE. Just thought I should note this for the record. - Jackpot 02:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed that yesterday... gnnnn. --M Sipher 02:14, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I am officially ending my opposition to departure. They're taking away ads for logged-in users... but then putting great-big randomized green "JOIN JOIN JOIN!" notices at the top or articles. They have no intention of letting logged-in users stay ad-free, it's just a temporary pacification measure.

Also, the ads aren't even rendering RIGHT in Safari. -Derik 02:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

We haven't changed the ads for logged out users, just removed them for logged in. Logged out users always had more ads than logged in - see the original announcement. The "join" notice is also the same as it has been for months - I think it's possible for me to turn this off per-wiki on request, although I don't think it's a bad thing to have.

For the discussion on the change see Wikia:Forum:Wikia's New Style#Possible changes for logged-in users. The announcement that we are going ahead is under that. There are no plans for this to be temporary, the hope is this will be a long-term thing...although obviously we ain't gonna make the same mistakes again and guess the future.

It really is a bad thing to have, at least in the quantities they're set to. I love this wiki, but I have nothing to add and I never plan to make an account here, so I do not need to see a big green "Sign up!" box on every friggin' page. If nothing else, they should be toned down. 68.82.23.19 08:18, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Derik, can you give more info on what is going wrong for your on Safari? Screenshots are always handy if you are able to take them. Thanks -- sannse (talk) 14:41, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

The ads seem to be acting up on the front page again - usually (at least, in IE), the ads shift the content down, but today (on Firefox), they are placed over it.KrytenKoro 21:34, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Main Page (or, how Wikia is going to fuck it up yet again)

copied from community portal
Hey guys, I'm Scott. As you know, the ads everywhere on the site have gone away for logged in users. The trade-off is that the front page will be getting a 300x250 box in the upper right hand corner to go along with the banner. I don't want Wikia to go out of business (I love free wikis too much!), so I've been going around to a bunch of wikis to help with that process. The 300x250 ad just for the front page will be turned on at some point this week, so to keep the front page from breaking, I've designed this update for you guys. What do you think? Ads will still be gone for logged-in users -- that's not changing (logged-in people will only see the front page ads, and that's it). I've been suggesting to wiki admins that they encourage their users to log in whenever they can so they don't see the ads. It's even possible to make login mandatory if you want. Anyway, I hope the ads being gone is cool with you guys. I just want to make sure that the front page looks okay with the new format; if they get turned on with the current layout, the front page will look crappy and I don't want that. Let me know what I can do to help! —Scott (talk) 23:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Walky, when are we going to be ready to move? --FortMax 23:37, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

This whole thing is so odd. I honestly don't WANT to not have ads as a logged in user. Reasonably placed ads don't bother me at all; I'll gladly take them if it helps pay for the site! The idea of this change seems to be that while the site is still far uglier for the readers, and getting uglier all the time, we contributors are insulated from it enough that we'll keep providing free content. But I don't see a point if it's all going to be screwed up for the readers by invasive ads. Chip 00:22, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

for the record, logged in users no longer see ads. --Uberfuzzy 00:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers. You shouldn't have to register here to not have our meticulously-laid out content result in an ad-frenzied clusterfuck. If ads were just always off in the corner or at the top, sure, but these damn fucking things actually push down content, rearranging things on the page. And that will never ever be acceptable to me. --ItsWalky 00:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a nice alternative to no Wikia at all. --Charitwo 00:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

No, a nice alternative to no Wikia at all is installing my own damn Mediawiki on my own damn server like I have done before.] --ItsWalky 00:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I was speaking for 6000 wikis as a whole, not just one wiki. This is the most sensible option, given all the feedback received, that could be implemented. --Charitwo 00:35, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how making the site look like absolute crap, riddled with as many annoying ads as possible, can possibly return a profit for Wikia in the long term. You're giving us a false choice. This isn't some binary thing, where Wikia can choose to either do nothing and continue like they always have, or make the experience absolutely unpleasant for everyone. --ItsWalky 00:52, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

There was no other choice but to change the ad situation, I'm not sure if you've been keeping up with the ongoing discussion, but it was explained more thoroughly there than I could bother to rehash here. --Charitwo 00:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

...isn't that what I was just talking about? I was explaining why it isn't a solution. It also isn't going to last. I mean, think about it: the new, obtrusive, unscreened, singing and dancing ads are there to be seen, right? So if we play along and all the readers actually start logging in, there will be no choice but to deliver those ads to all of us. this is not a solution. Chip 00:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

This won't happen. --Charitwo 01:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

How can you say this with any certainty?--Rosicrucian^Talk 01:05, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Give me one good reason why we should believe this for even a second. Take your time, I have a book. --M Sipher 01:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

How does that make the tiniest bit of sense? Are you saying that once everyone starts logging in, and nobody's seeing the ads anymore... what, God will reward Wikia with magical servers that pay for themselves, and spit out petty cash to cover peoples' wages? Wikia has to make money, and once a majority of users are logged in, logged-in users will need to be served ads.

And again, I have no problem with seeing ads. None whatsoever. But if the old ads weren't making enough money, there needed to be a better solution than going to advertisers with such ridiculous demands. Why not seek out targeted advertising for the most popular wikis, ads that will be more likely to unterest the users and get clicks? Why not try ANYTHING else before just making the ads more intrusive? Chip 01:24, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I still remain dubious that all interested advertisers are only willing to hop on the Wikia train if they get content-area ads, and that this is the only way to keep Wikia from going under. It seems like a slippery slope for me. How long until we get hypertext link ads like tformers.com inserts? It could get ridiculous really fast, and seems to have hurt the signal-to-noise on the articles significantly.--Rosicrucian^Talk 00:42, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

As of right now, the current advertisement situation is not going to be changed in the forseeable future, sans broken/inapproriate ones, please use Special:Contact to report those. --Charitwo 00:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Which is, ultimately, why we're considering the move. It's not likely to get better and it could stand to get quite a bit worse before the end.--Rosicrucian^Talk 00:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I've heard this before the switch to Old Monaco (where Wikia was changing to the more profitable banner ads from the unprofitable skyscraper ads) and again a month later before the switch to New Monaco (where Wikia was changing to the more profitable in-article poptart ads from the now magically unprofitable banner ads). --FortMax 01:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi guys. Just wanted to quickly address why I took "fuck" out of the header, as seen here. That wasn't what I originally named the discussion. When User:FortMax copied it here, those words looked like they were attributed to me. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks! —Scott (talk) 01:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, since you restored the original topic in the Community Portal, this edit seemed excessive. Thank you for clarifying. - Jackpot 07:05, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Another clarification... Charitwo is not staff and not speaking for Wikia. We believe that this is a sustainable change, and that we can keep ads away for logged in users for the long term - be we are being careful not to make guarantees that might bite us in the future - we've learned that lesson during all this! -- sannse (talk) 20:59, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I really love the new and improved main page. It looks really great now! (or did the aforementioned changes not get made yet?) 203.97.2.142 01:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

...apparently removing links to this discussion and reference to the tfwiki.net URL will somehow get rid of the white space. Good to know! Looks like Wikia has stopped playing, and they're now prepared to be completely shameless. Chip 03:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The while space can be removed by creating a 300px column on the right of the page. That's what the main page tags are for. The content should have been handled in a separate discussion, since it has nothing to do with the main page advert displaying properly. All you need to do to make the white space go away is put back that column. If there are any errors with the tags in place, please let us know. We aren't seeing them on other sites using this system, so would look into any differences in css and so on that might be causing the problem. -- sannse (talk) 17:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Quick reference for why we are discussing leaving

Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints --FortMax 00:49, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Setting a date

Okay, so here's how it stands right now: it seems pretty clear that this move is going to happen.

What I think we really need is figure out what we still need to do before we actually move, and set a date for when this is going to take place. Off the top of my head, this is what we have to do:

• Finalize the skin that we're going to use for when we move. Rosicrucian's already working on that, and has a work in progress that I personally think is great, but he's looking for comments from the rest of the community, too.

• Determine what ads we will run and start soliciting advertisers. I have little experience in this field, so I'm hoping Walky will chime in soon.

• Get the database and images dump from Wikia. This should be done the day before the actual move, so it's as recent as possible and they can actually get the dump made.

• The import itself will be done that night. After that's done, we'll put notices on the old site telling everyone to update their bookmarks, and send out a press release to the big TF news sites.

Frankly, I think that's it. To the people I've specifically mentioned, can we get your thoughts on when that'll be ready? To anyone else: is there anything I've missed here?

We can get this going relatively soon if we really want to-- and it seems like most people agree that it's best done sooner rather than later-- so long as we actually get on it. This is not as daunting as it seems. --Suki Brits 04:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

As far as ads go, wasn't the plan to run Project Wonderful? If that is still the case, soliciting advertisers isn't really the thing to do. I mean, you CAN, but it would involve spamming other people (mostly webcomics) that are members of Project Wonderful. We can come up with guidelines for who gets approved and who doesn't, content-wise, and I can prune advertisers based on those guidelines. (For example, "no badly drawn big titties" could be a rule.)

There's also Google Adsense and ADSdaq to consider, but those are mostly content-driven, so there'd be no solicitation there, either. However, if we DO choose ADSdaq, I do know how to program it to set aside a certain percentage of ad displays for a single ad, so if we did want to pursue our own advertisers such as BBTS, we could do that on the side. --ItsWalky 04:31, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, as far as our host is concerned, he just wants (and is still waiting to hear, as far as I know) what our traffic expectations are. Should I refer to the insidious line graph for numbers? It seems that we average out at about 150,000 pageviews a day, which is about 50% more than Shortpacked! does, so by my very quick guesstimate, the site'll probably cost about $90 a month to run. That should be... very very easy. --ItsWalky 04:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I asked Wikia for numbers, but-- not unexpectedly-- they have not been forthcoming. That infamous line graph is all we've got to work off, I'm afraid. I can send those to your host-guy myself, I suppose; I'll say that we want to get the move going sometime within the next couple of weeks or so. But we still need a solid date.

And, well, so long as we have a plan for dealing with the ads, that's great. I just don't want to get held up by people saying "Wait! We can't move yet! There's still advertising to work out!" I don't know if we want to rely on Project Wonderful ads, or if we should be soliciting, say, BBTS or the fan club, which is why I asked. If you think Project Wonderful will cover it, and you can get that set up, then that's great. --Suki Brits 04:46, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

As long as there's space set aside in the site design, ads can be dropped in and begin working in a matter of minutes. Google and ADSdaq will take a month or two to begin paying out. PW allows us to withdraw from our balance at any time. --ItsWalky 04:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Sounds to me like PW is a perfect "get up and go now" deal. More... "dedicated" ads from places like BBTS or other online stores could be introduced later, and probably wouldn't be a bad idea as backups, reserve fund money. Just saying. --M Sipher 05:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Sign up for one of those webtracker... things.... and put it in the site css/javascript. Gather our own numbers so we're not caught completely off guard if they're different than we expect.

One possible problem was that people would have to sign up for their accounts again- and there's nothing to prevent (say) me from signing up as "itsWalky" and causing buttloads of confusion. Suki and I patched that on the test server yesterday (screencap for the less technically-minded,) so that all seems to be in order. There's some more I'd like to do to make the transition go smoother- but nothing that it waits on.

August 31st. (Delay until September 30h if there's problems.) Plenty of lead time to get the word out, get people ready, transition data to the final server and work out any unexpected kinks, and time to properly debate and make final decisions we're comfortable with without rushing... but it also gets us out of here before any major TF-related 'stuff,' happens (that's before SDCC, right?) depriving Wikia of that readership boost. -Derik 05:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

SDCC is at the end of this month. But certainly I don't think Aug. 31 is in the middle of anything, and later is better for maximum not-screwing-this-thing-up-ness. Also, I second Sipher's point above that we should by no means dismiss the idea of soliciting ads from BBTS et al., even they don't go into effect until after the site's been running for a while. We've built up enough visibility in the fandom that I think plenty of TF-specific advertisers would immediately see the value in paying for our adspace. - Jackpot 05:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

August 31st in particular may not be a good time for me, given the school year starting at the beginning of September, and since I'll be doing most of the work involved... well, it matters. I'll look into it: for now, is it reasonable to say that we'll be moving on either August 31st, or if not possible, August 24th? --Suki Brits 10:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I was just throwing out a date. No one seemed either strongly for or against it. (The 24th puts me in my first week of classes, but that's... no different than I really expected.) -Derik 13:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

BTW, what's the preferred URL going to be? tfwiki.net or tfwiki.info? I changed a link I had on my site to the .info url, but tfwiki.net is displayed in bold letters on the main page, so I'll use that if it's preferred. --203.97.2.142 01:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

i think we should put BIG notices on the main page saying about the move NOW so people have more time to update links and bookmarks81.108.233.59 09:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Final reservations

I am no fan of Wikia at this point, but I brought up some questions about the move that haven't been answered yet. I'm just going to quote myself: "Is Walky's server sufficiently reliable? Will the site stay up, will the data be safe and backed up, will ordinary technical issues be dealt with regularly, will it be reasonably fast and able to handle massive amounts of traffic?" Also: "I assume that we're not talking about a computer in Walky's bedroom, but beyond that, I don't know what we're proposing here. Wikia, though they may fuck with our layouts, at least is in the business of hosting wikis, so I feel I can put the basic trust in them that Teletraan I will function and my work won't vanish, barring major catastrophe or bankruptcy."

Now, since I first posed those questions, the Wikia folks have dangled the threat of their own insolvency more openly, and I've also learned that Walky's been hosting his own wiki for some time. So while the relative perceived security of the two have become a bit more comparable, I still would really like to hear from Walky or anyone else involved in the nitty-gritty of the move speak to the issues I've raised. As bad as the ads are, I think it would be worse to have a site that fails entirely - either in the lighter sense of technical/traffic issues throwing a monkeywrench from time to time, or in the worst-case scenario of hundreds of our frivolously-spent man-hours becoming truly wasted by an unbacked-up server crashing and erasing our work. In the end, I know no one can guarantee anything in the wilds of the Internet. But I'd like to at least know that these things are being considered and prepared for in some fashion.

- Jackpot 06:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

*sigh*

*puts "database export" on the look-into pre-launch checklist*

We were gonna do this for TT1 site- assing people to save backups of the page and image archives regularly and keep track of who had what... but that kinda fell apart when we realized that wikia wasn't updating the image archive. I figure including the ability to download importable backups (just like we will be from Wikia) is good enough, right? -Derik 06:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what that last sentence means. - Jackpot 06:46, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

*clarifies preceding sentence*

Wikia database exports (such as the one we're gonna use for our move) take the form of two files. (both >700mb) The first is a giant xml file of all the edits ever made to every page on the wiki. The second is a giant .tar of all the images. If we keep those two updated and downloadable... that's all you'll ever need to port everything to another wiki. (As we're planning to do.) *checks with Suki to see this is correct* Yup.

There's scripts for creating the XML dump. I assume there's ones that create the .tar too. We'll just have to make sure we get 'em working. -Derik 06:54, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Editing halt?

Question: When should we stop editing altogether to make this transition easier? I've been cutting back on edits since news of the potential move. --FFN 09:15, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Basically, right after we ask for the database dump to be made, you should stop editing, or they'll just end up getting lost. Don't worry about it right now; full warning to everyone will be given when that actually approaches. --Suki Brits 19:21, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't Walky (well, and McFeely, and you...) have the ability to 'deactivate' the site? If things go well- I assumed we'd lock the site at midnight, get the latest export, do the databsse import on the new server (~10 hours) and then move en-masse to the new server. Total downtime'd be ~12 hours if there's no hickups, and you'd time it so it'd be the least productive 10 hours. (late night and early morning.)

Any images that end up missing because we got the image archive a day or two earlier could be ported by hand-- that's relatively easy to do by hand compared to the article updates. (MediaWiki has a function to list all images, starting witht he most recently uploaded. You'd just compare the two to find what's missing.) I volunteer for that task, assuming I'm not out of town. (Are we setting a date?) -Derik 19:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Unsurprisingly, Wikia gives us precious little power. None of us are capable of locking everything-- short of getting a bot to do it. I mean, it makes sense, but doesn't make any of this any easier. --Suki Brits 07:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

...bringing things back around to plan A again. -Derik 08:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

S***!Aw,who cares...SHIT!Why are we moving?WHY!Crap...

Because Wikia is being underhanded, Ms/Mr. Anon. Spriteless

Some suggestion from an outsider who's read the whole discussion (it's been instructive!): Make a page "Move notice", give the schedule, then bot post to it every 5 or 10 minutes or so with a summary like "please read this, or your edits will be lost" so that everybody who even so much as glances at recent changes gets the idea. For more involved code-fu, get the bot to watch recent changes and post if (and only if) its own last edit isn't at the top any more. --◄mendel► 11:59, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe we are able to edit the Recent Changes template itself to include such message at the top. -Derik 19:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

why does it really matter?

Seriously, why in the big scheme of things does ANY of this matter? why do people want to "move all this information to another site" because of banner ads? it's called the internet people,...ya know this isn't anything new here, banner ads and all other kinds of marketing has been shot at us since the internet started coming out of our old cathode ray tubes,...(before LCD screens for you youngins out there).

and I for one, never even SEE any ads on this site anyways, I'm always logged in, and even if I'm not i have a firefox add-in called no-script that blocks any damn thing i WANT it to,...so in all reality, if you people are SO burdened by ad campaigns,...go back to what we did back in the 80's, go start yourself a little fanzine with a ditto machine (sniff those ditto pages while you're at it,....i LOVE and miss that smell!). At least with your own in=print fanzine you won't have to deal with ads.....well unless you want to put out a second issue that is,...cause that ditto machine cost you some cash,...and the paper even cost cash too....so hence ads will have to be put in your own in-print fanzine. So lets just move all of this information to Little Jerry's server in his mom's basement....yea that'll work,....I'm sure after an extra 2 or 3 months of his moms cable bill sky rocketing because of having to pay extra for an business account internet access due to the VOLUME of traffic that will surely ensue, she'll just kill Little Jerry. So then we'll move the site to something like Billy Bob's account on GoDaddy.....I'm sure he wouldn't put some kind of ads on there or some kind of spyware that automatically tracks the actions of Margie Smith who decided to google up some transformers info from his new and improved wiki here on GoDaddy. or some other dumb crap like that,...or god FORBID Billy Bob would have to put some ads to pay the drastic increases in bandwidth....that toolbag,...how DARE HE!!!!???!!!!

Listen people, it's the internet,....it's going to have ads!

And this is Wikia,....you can't do better than them,...and if you could,...more power to you, just throw me an easy thousand dollars from your first 4 billion dollar profit year ok? OK!

I for one an going nowhere, never will, and if i see people ducking out of here, i'll just laugh at your stupid posteriors.

END TRANSMISSION Vaporretarder 15:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, given that you just came out of the woodwork without contributing significantly to tell us that you'll be staying here if we move... I don't know what you intend to accomplish with this.--Rosicrucian^Talk 15:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, do you own a Heinlad alarm clock? --Thylacine 2000 15:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

well true I haven't contributed much to THIS site, i do other wiki stuff for marvel and dc comics, and star trek, but i dont have to defend myself against flames on here.

all I'm saying here is i come here to read up some info in my spare time, and nothing more, and i think it fruitless to move the site for any reason as pety as banner ads.

and no, i dont own a heinlad alarm clock....man, i just love people who THINK they are funny haha Vaporretarder 15:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

The problem is not that there are banner ads. The problem is there are large box ads that fuck up our layout, push down the main image below the fold on a bunch or articles, show up in the middle of the article area and cover article area and text. What's more, logged in users (who make 95% of the edits) never see the ads (even on preview pages), while people who are not logged in (who make 95% of the page views) always get ads. This means that the editors do not see the same page most of the site visitors see.

Also, we will be able to get a better deal on ads on Walky's server than Wikia can here. Companies that buy add space will pay more when they have a very good chance of the add reaching someone who would be interested in something they offer. We can do this on Walky's server with online toy stores and comic shops. Because of the vast scope of interests Wikia covers, wikia cannot do this, so they're stuck with random ads for things nobody wants, which obviously will not pay as much. --FortMax 16:34, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

There's also all the underhanded doubletalk and backpedaling that was done to "sell" the forced changes. After all that, I have ZERO expectation that logged-in users will be "ad-free" for long, or that the ads won't get more and more invasive and obnoxious. They're doing another song-and-dance, and people are buying it out of short-sighted selfishness. It sure as fuck isn't "Wikia or nothing"; other wikis have made it on their own, and frankly I see no reason why we can't. But then again, I do things like read and comprehend, which our rambling visitor seems to have a problem with. --M Sipher 16:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I just don't see how you plan to make this happen, and for the record no one cares about ads! (these 95% of visitors already know what to expect fro the internet) they know they will see ads, its a way of life.... some people can go right ahead and "move the info to another server" and say F.U. to wikia,...but really all that you're going to do it hurt the overall community because as of right now,it only looks to be a small uprising of moderators who are getting pissy about this,....who's to say that you have the power with only 5% of the vote,...what about those 95% of visitors opinions? ......I'd say just suck it up, keep posting the great info right here like always and go along with your merry little day,....or go pull that other site up and fail, it's up to you.

Vaporretarder 16:51, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Near as I can tell, every singe regular contributor supports the move.

And it's not about the ads- it's that Wikia has lied to and deceived us- and be CAUGHT lying to and deceiving us- at essentially every step of this rollout process. There is zero trust in anything they say anymore- and we don't credit their placating comments of "This far, no further!" anymore. Right now they're saying "no ads for logged in users!" ...but also amping up notice-harassment to try to get ALL users to log in. Do you understand how the two are mutually irresolvable?

And seriously- why should our users have to put up with message harassment demanding they sign up? We disabled those messages in June when they first started popping up. ...until Wikia rewrote the script which produces them so we can no longer disable them.

Wikia's atmosphere has turned very, very unfriendly- we don't feel like putting up with it, and every active contributor on this community eventually agreed that they no longer want to stay. Does it really have to get more complicated than that? Case closed. -Derik 17:28, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I initially started out very optimistic about Monaco. If you look at the Community Portal talkpage, you can see that after a bit of talking with Danny, I gave them the benefit of the doubt on a lot of things, and got very gung-ho on customizing Monaco and started up a lot of chatter about using it to improve our interface. That goodwill has been wasted.--Rosicrucian^Talk 18:04, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

i just think that you people who don't like how the status quo is being handled can go somewhere else, and let wikia go how it will go,....no use arguing over pety,...and yes advertisements, however intrusive they ARE are still ads, they are necessary for a site to make some sort of revenue, if you don't like it, go somewhere else, simp0le as that, just stop with the bitching and complaining,...the internet is a BIG place,...you can go find another corner to sit in to complain at.

and in response to the dude above who is trying to flame me for saying that I ramble and i don't read and/or comprehend what i am reading,...you sir are quite wrong, true i might ramble, but its more of a flow of consciousness, just whatever comes to my mind i type,...but i DO comprehend everything thats going on, all i see is spoiled rotten jerks that want things THIER way or the highway, well i tell ya buddy, that there information super highway is CALLING your name,...it's urging you to go play in traffic.

Like i've said above you NEED ads to make a site profitable and ALSO to pay hosting and bandwidth costs.

whatever though, you can stay here and keep bitching or leave, its up to you, it IS a free country, or a free world if you don't live in the USA. Vaporretarder 18:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I love that you tout your reading comprehension, and then go and post stuff like this. We are "going someplace else". Someplace else with ads, which everyone understands are entirely necessary. Blah blah blah, blah blah. --Salt-Man Z 19:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Ladies and gentlemen, behold the face of "competing wiki" we would leave in our wake. - Jackpot 19:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I like cheeseVaporretarder 19:26, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Cheeze is crusty. -Derik 19:28, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm just saying, who REALLY cares about having ANOTHER damn transformers site on the web? there is already a perfectly good one right here,...and if not THIS one there are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of OTHER fan sites out there as well,....dont add to the mess,....lets keep this world clean and safe for our childrens. don't do it for me, do it for our childrens,....be green, reduce, reuse, and recycle!

now shut up, ya'll KNOW i'm awesome, and i'm right, or didn't you get that memo? Vaporretarder 19:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

In the spirit of your drive to keeping the world clean, I ask you please stop wasting oxygen. Can we now ban the blatant and not even dimly amusing troll, please? --M Sipher 19:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no oxygen is being used, i live in a bubble,...you wouldn't make fun of a bubble boy if you were in front of one,...

but seriously,....are you going to try to have me BANNED for stating my OPINION? that sounds rather nazi-esque, and gestapo-like to me,....and actually sounds WORSE than what the wikia people that you are bitching about are doing. hmmmm i smell irony,...or a pork chop sandwich,...either way it smells like suppertime to me! Vaporretarder 20:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, here's the problem. You don't contribute here, you apparently just stopped by to let us know you think we're stupid, isn't that the definition of trolling?--Rosicrucian^Talk 20:51, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I like trolslaw. It's a yummy dinner, and nutritious. Let's all feed the troll so we can have more! :D We're a smart site!

V. Retarder, if we go to a new site, we can get our own ads, which will pay more than the wikia ads. Also, we will be in control of the content without dealing with Wikia. Also, this website will be left behind, so you can take care of it if you like.

Do you really think there are too many websites on the internet? Well, we will have a better site than Bob's TRansformers geocities page, so we won't be adding to useless sites. On our own site, we will have the option of merging with other websites. You can't merge another website with Wikia, it has the rigid GNU policy, that means all the other site's work would become public domain.

However, you have the right to disagree, just don't expect to convince anyone your right by saying someone who disagrees with you is a troll. *shuts her ironic mouth* Spriteless 21:07, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

VR, with what due respect- this is the only place you've posted. All you'ds aid is "You should not move because it's just ads and your winy babies and there's too many sites on the internet." Others explain our point of view, you reply ignoring those explanations and repeat your original statement as if it was a response to what they said.

*I* think you're a troll. I mean- you have retarder' in your screen name, that's usually not a good sign. I (and others in this conversation whom I think reached the same conclusion) didn't particularly care though, because your method of getting attention took the form of...well... this conversation. And I think this is a good healthy conversation for us to have before we set a decamping date. We were gonna have to have it sooner or later- and I think it's actually very nice to have a chance to express clearly "Though our subjective experience as logged-in/adblocked users is not terrible, this is STILL why we are going to leave." All previous such conversation tended to be in red-hot anger. This one's been pretty calm, even casual, and that's good.

Basically I'm tentatively convinced you are raising your objections purely to get attention, but I still found them useful. -Derik 22:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I just think it's funny cause you guys are such elitist pricks about it, i say go forth and create your own wealth, it IS the American way after all,

as for being a "troll", oh well, so what if i'm not a "top performer" in the adding of content to THIS particular wiki, I mainly come here if i just wanna look up some random fact about transformers, I am an avid supporter of marvel and star trek wikis too, more so than this one. as for having "retarder in my name,....hahahahaha, i don't think you youngin's have any sense at all about anything OTHER than transformers and transformer related things, the name is a direct result of working with fiberglass insulation,....the paper on it in particular is a vapor retarding backing....not that i'm a vapor retard,...not that that is even a REAL putdown either. so get some new material and come atcha boy with something real next time. unless you're too scared to fuck with someone who is a full fledged member of the Benevolent Order of Registered Sex Offenders. heh so thanks again for being eveything that i hate about the internet, whiny childish eliist snobs.....and you wonder why only 5% of the traffic here is you guys,...cause the other 95% wants you gone anyways haha. peace i'm out!Vaporretarder 05:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Huh. That's kinda weird. I knew another guy online who worked with fiberglass insulation. He wasn't a Trekker, though, so he ain't you. It kinda makes you wonder what percentage of people you talk to online work in the same jobs...

But anyway, more on topic... Are you seriously bragging about being a registered sex offender as part of your argument? I sympathized with you up until there... this Wiki can be just a mite unfriendly to people who are here primarily to debate rather than to contribute... But bragging about something like that? I'm sorry, dude, but you lost all good will right there. We may be elitist snobs, but at least we're elitist snobs who respect women. Sorta.--Inevitable Betrayal 06:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, Wikia has sold me on the merits of harassing our casual readers into becoming active editors! Kudos Wikia, Kudos. -Derik 11:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

yeah, and about the sex offender thing, if you guys dont see humor when it's written i9n back and white, you need glasses badly,....i DID put down the "benevolent order of...." so since it's benevolent,....we're the GOOD ones haha,...or something, whatever, it humor at any rate.

as for me debating rather than contributing,...i've never (until now) debated on here, nor have i contributed either,.....i wasn't aware that in order to enjoy this site fully i was required to post shit, oh sorry, i apologize, i surely hope i don't go to hell for that. I guess i should start contributing to so porn sites that i vistit as well, according to your definitions, so which one of you is Jenna Jameson in here? gotta say that you ass is smoking!

later asswipersVaporretarder 12:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Well. You've sure convinced me of... uh... well... whatever the hell it was you've been trying to say for the last two days. You must be right! We should all.... uh... um... do.... that thing you said. Whatever it was. -- Repowers 15:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, i am probably gonna be marked as a troll, or an offender, or someone will say that i don't contribute much with this wiki so i can't take part in the discussion or my opinnion is not really based on facts or any kind of nonsense.

But look, i agree with everything that Vaporretarder said, i personally believe that moving the site will kill it. There are more than 5000 articles here, it's a LOT of data. Wikia's server can handle this amount of information and can afford the bandwith that it generates. Moving all this data to another server can really fuck up things, for all the reasons that Vaporretarder already explained. I really believe (and i hope nobody takes offense on this, but i know some will) that you are all acting like those über-geeky nerds wee see on sitcoms and tv in general. A kid with coke bottle glasses, braces, who hunchs and nobody likes, with his nerdy followers debating who could win in a battle, Boba-Fett or Jango-Fett, and getting rabidly angry when someone disagrees with him. I mean... who cares there are ads? It doesn't hurt the site! Someone said up there "The problem is that Wiki lied" or something like this, sorry, i'm not finding the precise words. Well, did any of you HONESTLY BELIEVED that the "Wiki system of sites" (for the lack of a better word) was created out of the goodness of someone's heart? No, it was created to make money, and now that there are hundreds of wikias around the net, it's creators are getting enogh money to wipe their asses with hundred dollar bills. If you can't take this, you are really naive. Even if you move the site, eventually you will need money to keep it running, just like Vaporretarder said. What you guys think will happen then? This is just my opinion, but i think you guys are crying over nothing, just like the steryotipical nerd i spoken about. Moving the site over simple vanity will ruin it as a whole. I talked to people i know that use wikis as a source of information and none of them cares about ads. Don't destroy this site simply because you where offended by something as silly as ads, something that have no importance at all in the real world. -- Akumateukuma 15:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, you apparently have read about as much of the discussion as he did, so here's some bullet points for what you missed.

• We aren't moving the site just because the ads exist. This site has had ads for years, and they weren't a dealbreaker as long as they didn't have excessive flash that spilled into article content or talked.
• We are moving the site because Wikia is putting ads in the article area, which fucks up our layout.
• The new site will still be ad-supported, it will just be supported by targeted ads (like comic shops, Transformers news sites, online toystores like Action HQ or BBTS, etc) which will be placed more tastefully than the current trend on Wikia. As above, there's no objection to banner/skyscraper ads in the margins, it's when it goes into the article area that we get testy.

So, I hope that helps clarify.--Rosicrucian^Talk 16:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

We also get testy when they lie, bait-and-switch, backpedal and then misrepresent our work as "proof it works!". Their track record does not bode well for any future endeavors. And if all this has "no importance in the real world"... then why are you wasting your apparently-valuable time here? Why do you care what this site does? --M Sipher 16:08, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for not offending me. It's very difficult to not be cursed by something postd on this wiki (and you know i'm not lying).

I understand that you guys don't like the fucking up of the layout, but what scares me is that moving the gynourmous amount of data may fuck up everything. This wikia was created but not with it's whole amount of information, the articles where created little by little until it reached the 5000 + articles that we have now.

Correct me if i am wrong, but it wasn't all made at once.

Now, moving ALL OF THIS DATA to another server... looks like a major nuisance and something that eventually the people responsible for it won't care anymore. Small articles (or the ones not considered "relevant") will be left behind and the new site will end up with 1/3 of the info we have here.

That's what i am afraid of about this "moving" thing. We already have enough crappy Transformers sites on the net, this is the only one that it's really good in my opinion, and moving it and run the risk of ruining it, well it's not something i believe is worthwhile.

Now M.Sipher, you make a good point. I care what this site does because i like Transformers and i like this site. It's a great source of information about a hobby i have. But i still think you are all overreacting.

No offense now, but everyone that cares about this site is a nerd. You are a nerd, anyone that ever made an aerticle here is a nerd, we are all nerds because we are using up our times to write about Transformers.

The thing is, i believe that this decision of moving this ENTIRE SITE is the thing that the wrong kind of nerd does when contradictet and that it will absolutely kill the Transformers wiki.

Since it's a site that a like to visit on my spare time, i would find it a crying shame if it was destroyed over the dispute of a bunch of agressive and elitist nerds. -- Akumateukuma 16:23, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

"OH BOO HOO YOU OFFENDED ME and by the way you're all nerds." Your people skills are remarkable, fellah. Have some faith; some of us "nerds" are actually pretty intelligent people, and more importantly, some of us (not me) make their full-time living working with computer stuff. I bet they just might be able to figure it out; in fact, if you peruse previous discussions on this very page, you'll find these issues being haggled out by those self-same "nerds". -- Repowers 16:33, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Well then, let me put at least one fear to rest: We have a working mirror of this wiki on another server, using the database dump which Wikia has provided us. It is not up to date yet, but it will be as we're going to request a second dump before the move. We are past the proof of concept stage now.--Rosicrucian^Talk 16:26, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, my major fear is that the massive amount of info here will be lost on the process of moving. If nothing gets lost, i couldn't care less where the site is being stored.

The other fear is about bandwith expenses... The thing is, i seen good sites get killed by "being moved" over the dispute of it's owners or moderators, and unfortunately, that's the kind of thing i am seeing for this one as well. I really hope i am wrong, but in the meantime, it would be really good to know that you guys may reconsider. -- Akumateukuma 16:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

We've already done the move once, as a test. It takes 10 hours to port over the articles and the proscess is almost completely automated. (The images will require a bit more hand work, but not much.) -Derik 16:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

We'd reconsider if we had any faith that staying here would not become a progressively worse experience for editor and casual reader alike, and that what Wikia management sings-and-dances today won't turn out to be untrue tomorrow. We'd reconsider if there weren't loads of sucessful independently-run websites and wikis to prove that it can be done (like TFU.info, the Homestar Runner wiki which doesn't even have ads, etc). We're NOT going to reconsider because of a really poor mass-ad-homenim attack. --M Sipher 16:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you guys can make sure that the moving won't screw the site content, then godspeed, you have my blessing.

By the way, Repowers, i am including myself among the nerds here, don't be so oversensitive. And it's a fact that i was offended in more than one ocasion after making some edit here, if you haven't, well, good for you!--Akumateukuma 17:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It would be difficult for the site to get killed in the move because it's more like copying what we have and putting it on the new server. If anything doesn't get to the new site (which i assume you're talking about when you say "killed") it could be moved by hand or if it's a lot of data we can get another dump because we're no deleting anything else here so we can get any thing lost in the transfer again from here.81.108.233.59 06:57, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

We're going to need more admins after the move

The recent bout of vandalism we just had made me realize something. After the move, we won't have Wikia's Janitors around to take care of vandals. Despite the amount of times the admins spend on the wiki, we're going to need more then four Banhammer wielders if we're going to be able to quickly deal with vandals.

Unless, of course, it would involve Derik getting admin powers. I'd rather be stuck with the vandals. :p --FortMax 19:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I'd back you as an admin. Derik is a little...yeah. But who would we have? -- SFH 19:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm willing to nominate Apcog, aka Doug Dlin. And I already reject any notion that I should be allowed to ban people. --M Sipher 19:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Seconded. He's extremely good about maintenance.--Rosicrucian^Talk 20:45, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This general concern is part and parcel with the points I brought up above. Out of all my reservations, the only one anyone's even given lip-service to is the consistent-backup question. Derik explained the technical side of what sounds like an easy procedure... but the one big question remaining is, who's going to do it on a regular schedule? If TT1 is going to be on an ISP's server, then presumably someone there is paid to cover a lot of the nuts-and-bolts stuff that I'm concerned about. But if not (and STILL no one has explained what the term "Walky's server" actually MEANS), then who, out of the goodness of his or her heart, is really going to do all the unsexy work of site-maintenance for free on a consistent, daily basis? Counting on "the admins" in general is asking for neglect. Duties need to be assigned, and the assignees need to be prepared for the work. - Jackpot 19:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I thought we'd do what was proposed for here- make sure that we make regular DB updates- and actually list on the front page (somewhere int he fine print) "data last backed up on: date by: Derik. Images last backed up on: "date" by: Derik" (or whoever.) So if anyone loses track- it's on the front page and Someone will notice- "Hey, no one's backed up the archives in 60 days!".

It's a really simple safety mechanism to provide basic protection for stuff.

(I currently don't plan on getting the make-a-backup system working until we actually move into the new server. The scripts involved don't seem to be out-of-the-box pieces, and I'd rather do the setup once than twice. This plan may change- I'm poking at some other stuff at the moment.) -Derik 21:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

"Walky's Server" is where Walkypedia! is set up. (he may also have Shortpacked! and It's Walky! on thee, but those could be on Blank Label Comic servers) I'm willing to bet the server is one he's renting/leasing at some server farm somewhere, and he's also mentioned that he has a "server guy" who's helped get stuff set up. --FortMax 20:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Walkypedia, Shortpacked!, and It's Walky!/J&W! are all on the same Blank Label server. (I believe Wapsi Square is still on there, too.) This wiki would go on a sister server, if not the same server. Depends on the traffic load. --ItsWalky 20:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know who will actually be nominated as New Mods, but there's a pretty short list of people who absolutely should not be trusted with that power. By which I mean Derik, Sipher, Walky, and probably me. Doug's a good call, assuming he's around enough. I'd put Rob Powers' name in the hat too. -hx 20:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I may be around enough to be effective as an admin- but I have no real desire to be one. I spend a lot of time talking about wiki policy, arguing different perspective, etc... and I think the conversations that result are usually good and useful. That kind of thing tends to get stilted if people are disagreeing with an admin. (It shouldn't, but awareness of authority is human nature.)

Besides, I would have banned Monorail Guy. Satisfying as that may have been, it would also probably be inappropriate from someone in a position of responsibility.

I nominate McFeely! (Oh, what? Really? ...huh, I never noticed that.) Doug and Rob seem like a good idea though. -Derik 21:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

PROBABLY you? --ItsWalky 20:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Well yeah. I'm not around enough to be effective. Duh. -hx 20:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Giving Hoop and Derik badges is just a recipe for buddy cop comedy hijinks.--Rosicrucian^Talk 20:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm totally Eddie Murphy to his incredibly gay Mel Gibson. -hx 00:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The thing about admins is that these are officially appointed representatives of our community. Do we really want to say that Derik and Hooper are the type of people that we are? I mean, Hooper enjoyed Assaulthead's rants. I'm not saying that hx would unblock someone for the thrill. Admins are supposed to be impartial about who they ban. But one thing we might want to consider is granting rollback rights to some users. -- SFH 21:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The list hoop gave was a list of people who "absolutely should not be trusted with that power". He put himself and Derik on that list, as well as Sipher (who's said he rejects any notion that would allow him to ban people) and Walky. --FortMax 21:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

And, knowing Hooper as I do, adding Walky to the list was a comedy joke. --M Sipher 21:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

That goes without saying. --FortMax 21:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Fuck you guys, Walky totally banned me once. Clearly, he should never be allowed to have his finger anywhere near The Button. I readily admit that a wiki administered by a Derik/Sipher/Hooper triumvirate would be awesome to watch, but I think the signal to HONK BURF HATE AND PISS AND COCKS EVERYWHERE ratio would be pretty low. -hx 23:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Christ, you post one or two cocks on the Wiki and suddenly you get a reputation. -Derik 00:41, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It's settled, then. After the move, admin powers for the Wikia TT1 will transfer to Derik, Siph, and Hoop.

Or or or. We could make every major troll from the past year an admin, then see how long it takes them to realize it.

- Jackpot 00:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

THIS IS THE GREATEST IDEA EVER. The "leaving me and Sipher and Derik in charge" part, that is. It would look like the motherfucking WARRIORS up in this bitch. (Also, incidentally, us three may not be the BEST representatives of this community, but when you come right down to it, we probably are the most ACCURATE representations of the fandom as a whole. Siph is the curmudgeon who fixates on ridiculous obscure minutia and verbally lambastes anyone who doesn't agree with him, Derik is the weeaboo gaywad who ruins everything with his weeaboo gaywaddery, and I'm the self-inflated egotist and closet frat-boy who wants to get e-famous for being better at liking toys than everyone else. I'm guessing that Derik is also really really fat, since under this system one of us has to be.) -hx 12:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I think there should also be representatives who believe Transformers is serious business, and shouldn't have caption funnies. We should archive all discussion to the contrary when we move. Give the wikia site a fresh start on the subject with new management. Also, it will ensure the two sites have different personality and have less overlap. And the audience that likes the funny finds the new site that much fasterSpriteless 03:01, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and adminned Apcog and Repowers, just to let 'em get used to their AWESOME NEW POWER between now and the move. --ItsWalky 21:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

HAY GUYS WHATS GOING ON IN THIS THRED?--Apcog 02:07, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

OH NO KREMZEEK! HAS BEEN DOUG IN DISGUISE ALL ALONG!!!! --ItsWalky 02:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

By odd coincidence, I was recently able to watch the Dungeons & Dragons episode in which Eric gets to be Dungeon Master for a day, so the worries about how and if to use such AWESOME POWER(tm) are fresh in my mind. Of course, like Walky, I'm about to leave for Comic-Con until Monday, and there's issue catch-up for the following week after I get back, so it'll be essentially moot 'til then.--Apcog 06:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I see this Knol thing in the news. Could it be a viable alternative to tfwiki.net? (Vaguely relevant to this section) Drmick 17:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Knol is a completely different animal. There's no reason not to run MediaWiki.--Rosicrucian^Talk 18:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Question about feasibility

Not for this wiki, though, for the Devil May Cry one; if asking here is inappropriate, please just remove the section.

I've put a great deal of effort into the format of the DMC wiki's pages, and wikia's asshattery completely rips that up on both the top and bottom - it's not even shifted out of the way, for these pages - they look completely like shit.

As you all certainly know, Wikia seems to be refusing to listen to any suggestions that aren't given by their groupies, so I'm thinking the DMC wiki might have to perform a move similar to yours. However, I'm the only regular editor on that wiki, and the only admin who hadn't already moved on. Is there any chance I would be able to afford a move similar to yours? It is quite a small wiki (only 257 articles, with generally only 6-10 edits a day). Would anyone be able to provide cost estimates? I mean, if I can't afford it myself, I still might be able to affiliate it with a prominent fansite.

As a different "solution", if I must remain with wikia - do the skin guru's here (Derik, Rosicrucian, etc.) know if it would be possible to extend blank space horizontal to the ads, either through coding or simply through lots of ugly <br>? A giant blank space would be preferable to the ripped up state it is now. KrytenKoro 23:23, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

A few cost estimates are available at WikiFur's moving page. Bear in mind that they're based on a 9000-article wiki with a million hits a month. For a small wiki, either NearlyFreeSpeech or Linode would seem quite reasonable options.

The biggest cost is likely to be your time, and/or the time of whoever will assist you in the move. It could take a matter of hours, or several weeks, depending on your prior IT and MediaWiki experience and the level of customized service that you wish to provide. Configuration of extensions and ancillary services such as statistics and backups are relatively straightforward, but can still take a lot of time if you've not done it before. --GreenReaper^(talk) 17:38, 2 August 2008 (UTC)