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  • The Problem

    Like the Marvel and DC, Transformers fiction is filled with many continuities/timelines/universes.

    While it is clear that Generation One Optimus Prime and the Optimus Prime in the Unicron Trilogy are different characters and thus have been given their own pages on this wiki for years, I still feel their pages are too long by including Cartoon and Marvel Comics stuff on the same page.

    Now both Hasbro and TakaraTomy have acknowledged that there are different universes in their Ask Vector Prime Facebook posts and All Spark Almanacs and have given them the following names:

    • Primax
    Basically every variation G1, G2, Beast Wars and almost everything you can think of that is related to them.
    • Aurex
    Unicron Trilogy
    • Uniend
    The Aligned Continuity

    And many others

    My Proposal

    Character, Mecha and Terminology Pages

    We will basically separate character pages by their universal clusters and further separate them by universal streams. There will be subpages and master pages. Master pages will utilize the Tab view extension and transclude each subpage.

    Case 1: Name Unique to a Stream

    A name that has only ever been used a character in one continuity will simply be the title of that character's page. No parentheses or additional name spaces are necessary.

    • Example: Abel only ever appeared in The Headmasters so we keep his page as is and refine it.

    Case 2: Name Unique to a Cluster

    For names used by characters only in cluster they will be named like <name>/<cluster> <stream> and <name> will be a master page.

    Case 3: Name Used Across Different Clusters

    For name used by characters across different clusters, they will be named as such: <name> (<cluster>)/<stream> with <name> (<cluster>) being the master page and <name> being a redirect to a disambiguation page.

    Now, this will mean repeated information. Marvel U.S. and Marvel UK both share certain issues and The Transformers and Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers share a lot of similar stuff. However, taking a look at the Wookieepedia, both canon and legends share the Six Movies and The Clone Wars and thus there are common events within their two Luke Skywalker pages. Repeating information should not be a concern in my opinion.

    Case: 4 "Multiversal Constants"

    Yes, Primus in Galaxy Force is actually the same character as Marvel Comics Primus. I believe we should just deal with Multiversal Constants in similarly to Case 3. They will be named as such: <name> (<cluster>)/<stream> with <name> (<cluster>) being the master page and <name> basically being a more detailed disambiguation page explaining that the character is a multiversal constant, common attributes they have and any events that involve crossing multiple universal streams.

    Case 5: Very Different Interpretations in the Same Cluster

    • Example: Megatron and Galvatron are the same character in The Transformers but are different characters in the IDW G1 comics.
      • Megatron (Primax) will be a master page.
        • Megatron (Primax)/984.17 Alpha will be the page for Megatron in The Transformers and we will mention that he was later known as Galvatron, all of Galvatron's history in that continuity will be part of it too. Galvatron (Primax)/984.17 Alpha will be a redirect.
        • Megatron (Primax)/1005.19 Gamma will be a page for IDW Megatron transcluded in the Megatron (Primax) master page.
      • Galvatron/Primax 1005.19 Gamma will be its own article not transcluded anywhere. It will link back to Galvatron which is a redirect to Galvatron (disambiguation).
    • Example: Cybertron in the G1 continuity family almost always refers to the planet but in the Japanese G1 continuity, Cybertron is a faction, the equivalent of Autobot.
      • Cybertron (Primax) will be the master page.
        • Cybertron (Primax)/785.06 Alpha will not be a subpage, instead, the article for Japanese G1 Cybertron will be Seibertron/Primax 785.06 Alpha and it will be transcluded in the Cybertron (Primax) master page. Seibertron/Primax 785.06 Alpha will link back to the Seibertron page which is a redirect to Seibertron (disambiguation).
      • Autobot (Primax) will be another master page
        • Autobot (Primax)/785.06 Alpha will not be a subpage, instead the article for the heroic faction in Japanesse G1 will be Cybertron/Primax 785.06 Alpha and it will be transcluded in the Autobot (Primax) master page. The reason it is not Cybertron (Primax)/785.06 Alpha (notice the presence of parentheses) is so that it would not have a link back to to the Cybertron (Primax) article. Instead it will link back to the Cybertron page which is a redirect to Cybertron (disambiguation) on that page we will mention that the term can refer to both planets and factions.

    Media Pages

    This applies to the Japanese dub of The Transformers and the English dubs of Car Robots, Micron Legend, Super Link and Galaxy Force. With the Omni Productions dub of The Headmasters, Super-God Masterforce and Victory, we should just use the Japanese names since they clearly are not set in Primax 984.17 Alpha as Blaster is called Billy and the clear contradiction with Season 4.

    Approach 1: Include in Notes & Trivia

    We will favor one language over another and include dub differences in the Notes & Trivia section at the bottom of the page.

    Example: The Galaxy Force episode Wondrous Planet Speedia which was dubbed into the Cybertron episode Space.

    We can leave it as is and refine it a little. Or we can rename it Wondrous Planet Speedia and change the dub names to Japanese names.

    Approach 2: Tab View

    We create two similar pages and a master page with a tab view transcluding both. We will still need to favor one language over the other as the main page.

    So there will be a page called Space with a tab view transcluding a subpage called Space/English and another subpage called Space/Japanese. Alternatively a page called Wondrous Planet Speedia with a tab view transcluding a subpage called Wondrous Planet Speedia/English and another subpage called Wondrous Planet Speedia/Japanese.

    For those concerned with repeating information. I will again use Wookieepedia as an example, there are two pages for the same Star Wars: The Clone Wars episode The Gathering; one canon and one legends. In the original legends version, the episode involves Lightsaber crystals and Kaiburr crystals are only one of many. Now, canon has retconned Kyber Cystals to be a synonym for Lightsaber crystals.

    Approach 3: No Bias

    Simply one page called Wondrous Planet Speedia and another page called Space and each will have a disambiguation template at the top linking to the other language counterpart. I think this is the best approach.

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    • I think its a great idea with the master pages and sub pages. I even saw pages about the clusters and streams on Tfwiki. So if we want to catch up to them we also should look into how they organize the wiki, but of course without plagiarism. Given that Transformers has been around for more than thirty years and throughout all the time never has been really dead, it's certain that a lot of universes and continunities exist. There is a similar problem on the German Digimon Wiki where I'm an admin as well. There however we add the name of season in brackets behind the character. However in Transformers' case it would be really better if we make it with clusters and streams. Regarding the media pages I would mostly favour Approach 1 as in Transformers' case the difference between the Japanese and American dub isn't too big, also considering the fact that the Unicron trilogy was a Japanese-American co-production. It would be good if the differences between the Japanese and English dub are mentioned in the Trivia section. However if there are better arguments for Approach 3 I might also favour it.

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    • AeD

      Yeah, alright, but, consider:

      • "Optimus Prime (Primax)/984.17 Alpha" looks and reads like complete indecipherable (and unguessable) garbage to anyone who isn't deeply steeped in, or has memorised, all this junk.

      The Marvel/DC "Earth-616," "Earth-Twelve" system works 'cuz all the important stuff happens in 616 and One, and the other relevant universes are either just called "Earth-One" through "Earth-Fifty-Two" (DC) or have relatively straight forward 2-to-5 digit numbers (Marvel), and once you're in complicated numbers like "Earth-604829," you're talking about the 1981 Spider-Man cartoon, and higher than that gets you any number of weird "What If?" stories, or in-universe cartoons. "Spider-Man (Earth-616)" is probably a little dense to a complete newbie, but you grasp that pretty quickly.

      By contrast, "Optimus Prime (Primax)/984.17 Alpha" would be the page for a main character from one of the founding fictions of this franchise, and though you, steeped in it, might have no issue with it, it makes this site look like it's for robots. Nobody's ever gonna type "(Primax)/984.17 Alpha" into an address bar by themselves.

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    • AeD

      Also, Jesus Christ, the whole "universal streams" concept is clearly meant as an overcomplicated gag about Marvel's Earth numbers, and "Earth-616" is common fan language, whereas I, as an outsider, can't imagine "Primax 984.17 Alpha" is.

      Just use fiction-based disambigs, dudes.

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    • AeD wrote: Yeah, alright, but, consider:

      • "Optimus Prime (Primax)/984.17 Alpha" looks and reads like complete indecipherable (and unguessable) garbage to anyone who isn't deeply steeped in, or has memorised, all this junk.

      The Marvel/DC "Earth-616," "Earth-Twelve" system works 'cuz all the important stuff happens in 616 and One, and the other relevant universes are either just called "Earth-One" through "Earth-Fifty-Two" (DC) or have relatively straight forward 2-to-5 digit numbers (Marvel), and once you're in complicated numbers like "Earth-604829," you're talking about the 1981 Spider-Man cartoon, and higher than that gets you any number of weird "What If?" stories, or in-universe cartoons. "Spider-Man (Earth-616)" is probably a little dense to a complete newbie, but you grasp that pretty quickly.

      By contrast, "Optimus Prime (Primax)/984.17 Alpha" would be the page for a main character from one of the founding fictions of this franchise, and though you, steeped in it, might have no issue with it, it makes this site look like it's for robots. Nobody's ever gonna type "(Primax)/984.17 Alpha" into an address bar by themselves.

      Optimus Prime's many G1 incarnations will both be accessible individually and a single page called Optimus Prime (Primax) which only contains a disambiguation template and a w:c:community:Help:Tab view extension that allows one to easily between each subpage.

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    • What happens in cases where there's more than one character in the same universe with the same name? e.g. Armorhide (Armada) and Armorhide (Cybertron)

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    • Unless Armada Armorhide also appeared in the Fun publications Cybertron comics (Aurex 405.0 Epsilon) I don't think there should be a problem. That falls under Case 5.

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    • AeD wrote: Also, Jesus Christ, the whole "universal streams" concept is clearly meant as an overcomplicated gag about Marvel's Earth numbers, and "Earth-616" is common fan language, whereas I, as an outsider, can't imagine "Primax 984.17 Alpha" is.

      Just use fiction-based disambigs, dudes.

      Agree on that with 100%. As a fan I don't even know what to do with these numbers. As for:

      • Optimus Prime (Primax)/984.17 Alpha will be the page for Optimus Prime in The Transformers cartoon.
      • Optimus Prime (Primax)/984.0 Gamma will be the page for Optimus Prime in the U.S. Marvel comics.

      you could simply say Optimus Prime (Primax) and Optimus Prime (Marvel). I don't know how Marvel and G1 are really stuck together, but seperating those two with numbers and Alpha and Omega? Nobody will google that name directly and it's creating more confusion than helping readers.

      The Tab view looks great on the PC but totally messed up for mobile devices. So if you have two long textwalls and put them in a tabview together looks like one big textwall on the mobile phone and if you are saying now: well I don't care then you will loose users or readers because reading with a phone is getting important for Wikia. Usually I check out what's going on on Wikia on my phone more than 5 times on a day. If people want to search shortly about Optimus Prime in RiD they will see this long text with informations about him from War for Cybertron - Robots in Disguise. Maybe we can try something like this out (Example) so we have a big disambugation page and many sub-pages which are linked to the "main article".

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    • I originally considered using franchise and series names but I felt using stream names while less popular are more "neutral". e.g) G2 and Beast Wars are basically the future of G1 but many wouldn't consider a character introduced in G2 or Beast Wars to be G1, the only umbrella term I could find that binds G2, Beast Wars and G1 together would be Primax.

      It's fine for "Uniend" to be swapped with "Aligned" and "Tyran" to be swapped with "Live-action" but huge families like G1/G2/Beast Era and Unicron Trilogy are much more complicated.

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    • Although it is an interesting approach, I think this would be too complex. This universal stream thing is too obscure to be used as a disambiguation.

      I mean I like this universal stream stuff, so I wouldn't mind it but think of a guy that comes to this site to learn more about Transformers, then he sees these numbers and stuff.

      Also @AED, are you David Willis?

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    • AeD wrote: Yeah, alright, but, consider:

      • "Optimus Prime (Primax)/984.17 Alpha" looks and reads like complete indecipherable (and unguessable) garbage to anyone who isn't deeply steeped in, or has memorised, all this junk.

      The Marvel/DC "Earth-616," "Earth-Twelve" system works 'cuz all the important stuff happens in 616 and One, and the other relevant universes are either just called "Earth-One" through "Earth-Fifty-Two" (DC) or have relatively straight forward 2-to-5 digit numbers (Marvel), and once you're in complicated numbers like "Earth-604829," you're talking about the 1981 Spider-Man cartoon, and higher than that gets you any number of weird "What If?" stories, or in-universe cartoons. "Spider-Man (Earth-616)" is probably a little dense to a complete newbie, but you grasp that pretty quickly.

      By contrast, "Optimus Prime (Primax)/984.17 Alpha" would be the page for a main character from one of the founding fictions of this franchise, and though you, steeped in it, might have no issue with it, it makes this site look like it's for robots. Nobody's ever gonna type "(Primax)/984.17 Alpha" into an address bar by themselves.

      While I agree that this new disambiguation thing is a little bit too complicated and obscure, I think users can access G1 cartoon Optimus Prime's page with ease via "Optimus Prime (Primax)" page.

      Also you talked about Marvel's complicated numbers. But not every number is for obscure realities, some of them are for better known versions of characters such as Tobey Maguire Spider-Man's Earth-96283. Users can access his page through Spider-Man disambiguation page, the same logic with Optimus Prime (Primax).

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    • Now that I saw the Primus page, this doesnt look so bad.

      (Sorry for the double posting)

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