Talk: Universe CD-ROM

I'm going to have to go digging to be sure, but I know I have this CD somewhere, and I'm fairly sure I got it with a UK-edition Armada... Rhinox? I think Rhinox. And it had "First Encounter" on it, rather than "Awakening." I wonder where that thing is...? - Chris McFeely 19:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Same Day?

Not having this CD-ROM, I can't confirm for myself, but from the description in the article, nothing says the day of peak fighting occurs on the same day every year, only that it occurs once each year.--Apcog 00:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems to occur once a year at the peak of fighting. I too originally read that as the anniversary- but it needn't be that way. (Check the external links, the entire comic is there.) -Derik 00:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The whole comic is online here. And yeah, I guess it doesn't directly say it's the same day every year. Still, if the year's not over, how does the ship know there won't be a more intense day later on?

Much better. If we're going to poke at this thing's plot holes, let's be sure we're doing it right. :-)--Apcog 01:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Also: never to be seen again until next year. Hahaha. And a Primal from the "REQUEST DENIED!" school of leadership! -- Repowers 00:25, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Optimus Primal (Autobot)

Note: This discussion was originally on Talk:Optimus Primal (Autobot).

Right now this character is listed as just an alternate version under Optimus Primal, but if we accept the CD-ROM comic as part of the Universe war storyline, then he deserves his own entry as much as Obsidian and Tankor do. Before I start making additions to other characters' pages along those lines, I'd like to make sure no one objects too strongly to those ideas. It wouldn't be the first time I took a controversial stance without realizing it.

If that's all cool, then I'm also wondering if I picked the right disambig-parenthetical. A strict interpretation of the rules would dictate "(Universe)".... but BW Primal was also in Universe, playing a MUCH bigger role. If anyone's the "real" Universe Primal, it's the mainstream one. I can't think of a precedent to judge this by.

- Jackpot 22:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I've been against Universe Obsidian and Tankor being on separate pages for a year now, and this page is exactly why. --ItsWalky 23:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

(Also, "normal" Optimus Primal was ALSO an Autobot during Universe. The disambig parenthetical doesn't help.) --ItsWalky 23:09, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

To your first point, I think it's good to have separate pages for these guys because it reduces the confusion of who did what when in the giant load of text that is, for instance, Optimus Primal. I can see formulating this as a rule: When there are two variant-timeline versions of the same character in the same universe, the main character-page should feature only the primary version. The secondary version (if one can be dubbed that) gets his own page.

And your second point had occurred to me, but mainstream-Primal's Autobotness was more vague. I'm not sure anyone ever actually called him an Autobot in-fiction. He got an Autobot symbol on his packaging and on at least one bio, but other than that...

- Jackpot 23:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the reasoning. The assumption that the CD story is part of the "Universe war" in the comic is that: assumption. To have it otherwise is passing off fanon as canon. You're creating connections that have no canonical basis, such as putting this Primal in the universe where Tankor and Obsidian killed Megatron. Universe Tankor and Obsidian also at least interacted with characters who interacted with other versions of them. This Optimus Primal can't say the same. —Interrobang 00:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not sure where you get the Obsidian/Tankor thing from, and are we going to split off, say, the Wheelie who shows up in "Escape" from the one who dies in Wreckers? --ItsWalky 00:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

On the Wheelie point: I think there's room for discretion. Universe Wheelie has no distinguishing characteristics, nothing that sets him apart from Wreckers Wheelie. In fact, they could even be the exact same guy, with Unicron having taken him from the past (and then him going right back there when he escapes). Whereas these two Primals really can't be the same character, since CD-ROM Primal has the post-Unicron coloration, but no clue what's going on with the abductions. And as for Obs and Tankor, they've got their own unique backstory to set them apart. - Jackpot 00:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The logic is that, because Universe sets itself up as being pan-continuity, our default assumption should be that all Universe fiction is itself immune to variant continuities, whether those variants were intended to mesh or not (with notation to indicate where that assumption is being made). As it happens, the CD-ROM sets up a fine "origin" for the Minion inner circle we see later in the comic. Obsidian, Tankor, Razorclaw, and Reptilion are banded together on the same Cybertron, where they are also abducted together. Since Obsidian and Tankor's bios describe their Cybertron as having been an alterna-BM where they took over, it follows that that's the world we're seeing in the CD-ROM.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't normally advocate this - the Beast Wars pack-in comic, for instance, is properly kept out of the cartooniverse. But because of the "meta" nature of Universe, I think this is a special case.

- Jackpot 00:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I really think you're making stuff up, here. You're making huge assumptions that aren't supported at all, and from the way the article was worded, I thought there was something I missed when I originally read these stories years ago. It disappoints me to learn the whole thing is fanon. --ItsWalky 01:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Why not read the story?

You know we link to online scans of this story over at Universe CD-ROM, right?
Let's take a look and see what we can see!

• It's Autobtos vs. the Decepticons.
• Striker is an Autobot. Blackarachnia is a Decepticon. Things seem to have always been this way.
• Autobots and Decepticons had warred for centuries with a yearly harvest ship they never understood.
• The Decepticons are bodysnatched and taken to a Unicron whose appearance is absed on the unreleased Neo toy. The stolen Decepticons include: Razorclaw, Reptellion, Tankorr, Obsidian, and Blackarachnia.

What can we conclude from this?

1. This is not the reality Tanorr and Obsidian are from. That's right out- they come from a divergent Beast Machines- this scenario is nothing like that.
2. This is not the reality Razorclaw is from- because we've got Autobot and Decepticons, not Maximal and Predacons. His backstory in an alternate BW was crafted specifically to accommodate the maximal symbols on his toy.
3. This is not the reality Reptellion came from, we were told the circumstances of his abduction in his TFU profile, and these do not match. Plus- different character model.
4. This is not the reality BA came from-- since she didn't come from another reality.

In short- no one from this story shows up anywhere else, or matters in the least. (Well, I guess you could say the unnamed Blackarachnia here was Crystal Widow... but that's pure bullshit.)

This is a world that suffered the fate Unicron intended for the Cybertron of the Armada cartoon, driven made into mindless battles while he absorbs power from their conflict and culls the best warriors for his own purposes. That's about it.

And frankly- I don't think this Optimus Primal deserves his own page. Make one page for the entire world with sub-sections for each character. Maybe make a small note that he exists on the Primal page. We can document 6 divergent and mutually exclusive continuity of Primal on his BW page-- but we can't stick this guy on there as just another alternate take on Primal? How divergent are the Optimus Primes at Optimus Prime (G1)? Is he really more different than Cartoon prime, marvelUK Prime, IDW Prime, Hearts of Steel Prime? -Derik 02:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree that most of the characters are different from their mainstream Universe versions. That's kind of the point of this article. I'm only suggesting that the core four Minions are the same (and Unicron himself). On the points you raised about them, I don't want to drag the argument out, so I'll just say that what you see as irreconcilable contradictions, I see as superficial elements that pose no real conflict. Also, I missed Reptilion's profile, and his article is bare - what does it say about his abduction?

But anyway. I'm not going to belabor this, since I've gotten nothing but strong pushback. Which is why I started this Talk discussion in the first place, so thank you all for your input. I'll go back to the relevant articles I've worked on and excise the connections I've made between the CD-ROM and other fiction. Also, both Walky and Derik want these characters to appear on the mainstream character-pages... but what about Obs (Univ) and Tankor (Univ)? Does anyone actually WANT them to be separate, or are they a precedent that no one actually supports? Their Talk pages are empty.

Edit: Okay, I just found Reptilion's bio, and you mean the "routine exploratory mission," right? I suppose it's a hell of a stretch to equate that with the most violent battle of that year, so point taken there. Also, I just found Razorclaw's bio too, and it's hard to put him in the same universe as Tankor because they are both said to have destroyed Megatron.

- Jackpot 16:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, plus, you know, Razorclaw is a Maximal, and there's no Maximals in this Universe, just Autobots.

Kinda like the fact that this isn't an alternate version of the events of Beast Machines prevents it from being the home of Obsidian and Tankorr-- who came from an alternate version of Beast Machines- apparently a very close double up until they betrayed and destroyed Megatron.

You're acting like there's wriggle room here, and there really isn't. -Derik 17:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Graham reminds me that Reptilion's MTMTE-style bio says he was the FIRST TRANSFORMER Unicron had ever abducted, but in this minicomic the abductions had gone on for years and years before he was scooped up. So, yeah, this is all totally wrong. --ItsWalky 18:13, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Which issue is that in? I haven't been able to find it either in my collection or online. The only thing I've found is what I assume to be his Hasbro.com toy-bio, which calls him the "longest-serving general," but that's a far cry from "first abduction." Edit: Also, this point only reinforces the notion that the CD-ROM Reptilion isn't the same as the mainstream one, which I now agree with because of his altogether different abduction story. - Jackpot 18:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. I really don't want to drag this out, but if you want to know why I consider those differences "superficial," then here: I don't see any statements in these three bios that contradict the setting in the CD-ROM comic, outside of the two coexistent Megatron-deaths (which is itself not much of a conflict, considering how often TFs die and come back). Your preconceptions of what Obs and Tankor's alterna-BM should look like don't constitute a contradiction. Your claim that the CD-ROM universe can't contain Maxies and Preds as well as 'Bots and 'Cons is baseless. And in fact, the bios' description of Unicron being "at the farthest reaches of the universe" is more in line with the CD-ROM's "darkest corner of the cosmos" than the 3H comic's "between dimensions -- a part of none, in touch with all." Point being: Damn straight, there's wiggle room. As I said above, I'm pulling back from my assertion that we should be presenting this story and the core Minions as definitely cohesive with the rest... but your viewpoint that they CANNOT be the same seems unjustifiably extreme, especially given what Universe is. - Jackpot 19:13, 6 June 2008 (UTC)