Talk: The Transformers

I can sort of see the reasoning behind Singularity's move of this page from "Generation 1" to "Transformers", but I think "Generation 1 (cartoon)" is really the best name for it, regardless of what the name of the show itself was. After all, we don't include the word "Transformers" in all the other toyline and cartoon series article names. It is redundant information that doesn't belong there in a TF-focused wiki.

Thus, I propose moving this article back to "Generation 1".

--Steve-o 22:31, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

It really, really seems like there should be a link to The Transformers: The Movie (1986) in here somewhere. I just can't seem to find an appropriate place. --Andrusi 02:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Ep intro blurb?

So I'm looking at some of the various 'story' pages on the wiki... and most of them lack the 'sense of place' thing you get at the top of the G1 episodes. (Where is says Generation 1 => Season 1, etc.)

I'd like to propose a template based on the version used here. So Divide and Conquer would open with...

Generation One > Season 1 > Episode 6
Previous Episode	Next Episode

which'd be called with a template like...

{{EpWhere|Generation 1|Season 1|Episode 6|prev=Roll For It|next=Fire in the Sky}}

Most of those terms would be optional, you just put 'em in if/when they apply.

(There's obviously ore going on here because 'Generation 1' actually links to Generation 1 (cartoon), but with Wikimedia's new parser functions, I think it'd be possible to create a really friendly, low-effort way of putting these together.)

Any thoughts? If I went forward with this I'd probably consult with Steve on the proper series prefixes and such to keep everything consistent. Mostly, I just feel strongly that every story entry in a ongoing series should have a previous/next link. And we might as well make them pretty. -Derik 19:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I think we definitely need something along these lines, yeah. --KilMichaelMcC 19:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. --Omnisvalidus 20:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Any ideas what to call the template? -Derik 20:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The movie

Shouldn't the movie be in here? It's mentioned in the second paragraph, but shouldn't it be where it takes place, between seasons two and three? I'd change it, but I'm not sure if I'm missing something... Caswin 18:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point. We need like an 'intermezzo' section between season 2 and season 3 with Scramble City and the movie in it. -Derik 19:08, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Peter Cullen?

Did he do the voice for Prime in the series? Spartan 012 00:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

.... that's a joke, right? Detour 00:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, he did. --Steve-o 01:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

What about the Japanese shows of the late 80's?

Shouldn't there be something about them here? They did continue the G1 series right? They just left out the stupid Rebirth story arc of season four.

I agree. There should be a mention of this split-up of continuities at this point, as well as links for the entries of the three Japanese sequel shows. Takeshi357 15:07, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

This is the article for the American cartoon series running from 1984-1988ish, which was titled "The Transformers," but at some point somebody decided that we should just call the page "Generation 1 (cartoon)." Of course, this moniker does suddenly include the Japanese cartoons, which means it's not that great of an article name. The Japanese cartoons all have their own pretty extensive pages, since while America didn't break up their cartoon seasons into various titles, Japan did. "2010," "Masterforce," "Victory," etc, are all considered different cartoon series from each other, since they have different titles, same as "Armada," "Energon," and "Cybertron" over here. I do agree that the article needs to mention that this "continuity" continued on in Japan after Hasbro wrapped up in the States.

And Rebirth is awesome. --ItsWalky 17:51, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

order of episode

It is stated that the episode are not listed in the chronological order of the series (inside continuity). I don't know for you, but I consider it would make more sens to order them in the chronological order (and only keep the production order when it doesn't contradict the chronology). this Wiki is also for the one who don't know much about transformers and it would make thing clearer for them.

Should be fairly easy to put them in order, question is who has time to do it?

Shouldn't War of the Dinobots take place right after S.O.S. Dinobots? After all, the former begins with Megatron agonizing himself by watching footage of his defeat in the latter. Takeshi357 22:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It's possible to put a few scattered episodes into a relative order with a few other scattered episodes, sure. Like, probably "Fire on the Mountain" should be right after "Fire in the Sky". But really, we don't know. I would hope that it comes right after, but to my recollection there's not really anything in the story to indicate that. But we'd still have to largely rely on either the production or airing order and just assume that it is "mostly" chronological except for the ones we feel like moving around for some reason. That seems sort of iffy to me. I would be totally all for having a section or an article which discusses possible "correct" chronological orders for the series, but I think that the main list should stick to an order that we know and don't have to make up. --Steve-o 04:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

ANIMATED CONTINUITY??

Given that an actual continuity called ANIMATED is coming out should we not change the sections of Many pages that refer to the G1 toon as "Animated continuity"? Maybe a job for one of the Bot accounts?

"Oh Derik you silly goose, the phrase 'Sunbow Continuity' offends our eyes! We shall call it the 'Animated Continuity', or 'Generation 1 Cartoon'."

"But what if there's one day a Transformers series called 'The Animated Series?' Wouldn't hat make 'animated continuity' a really bad label? I mean- using 'animated' as an adjective descriptor instead of a proper one is already bad, there's been like 10 different 'animated' series."

"Then we shall call it the Generation 1 cartoon!"

"But what if there's a cartoon called 'Transformers: Generation 1?' Robots in Disguise shows Hasbro has a fondness for using basic terms as line-wide lebels. Or cartoon set in G1? With, like Arcee and the Dinobots based ont heir original cartoon models even? We've had 4 or 5 'Generation 1' comics, surely another cartoon, also 'Generation 1' just like Dreamwavs comics vs. Marvel Comics, is possible. Wouldn't the 'Sunbow' label, or maybe '1984 Cartoon' eliminate the ambi-"

"'Sunbow Continuity' is ugly, matter settled! Now I shall go smoke my space-marijuana, which is grown on the internet and is rich in denial."

-Derik 11:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

We also use "animated continuity" on UT character pages, too, you know. If we change the G1 pages to "Sunbow continuity," what do you propose we make the UT ones say given that no one, anywhere, ever refers to the UT cartoon universe using a production company name. Should Beast Wars/Beast Machines pages say "Mainframe continuity"?

We should either leave the headers as "animated continuity" or change them to "cartoon continuity." --KilMichaelMcC 12:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

You raise a good question. We have at least 3 'versions' of Beast Wars in the form of the 3H, Dreamwave and Fun Pub. And unlike most the G1 variforms- these are almost branches, they overlap completely around the cartoon by have different before them, during them offscreen, and (probably) after.

We've gotten by so far because there's been virtually no overlap-- but we're abotu to get a BW guidebook that establishes stuff about everyone in IDW's continuity. There's gonna be conflicts.

I recommend waiting until the IDW BW Guide at least begins publication before starting a discussion about the categorization of BW so we can get some idea of the scope of the problem. -Derik 13:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what any of that has to do with the subject at hand: the viability of continued use of the phrase "animated continuity" given the soon-to-be existence of a franchise with Animated in it's name. --KilMichaelMcC 13:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

It really has to do with 'animated' being used as an adjective. The phrase 'animated continuity' is essentially meaningless. The Sunbow cartoon? RiD? UT? They are all continuities which are animated. Even the long version 'Generation 1 Animated Continuity' is meaningless- there are two (US and Japanese,) and that's assuming we don't eventually conclude the new cartoon is part of the Generation 1 continuity family. 'Animated continuity' is a description-by-criteria for which there are multiple results- but it's being used to refer only thee 1984 Sunbow cartoon.

Generation 1 cartoon is marginally better- the American version was all 1 series, the post-branch Japanese stuff all has distinct names- but still on a technical level it's a description, and Victory is a cartoon and it is Generation 1. And most fundamentally, there is nothing to prevent any new cartoon series from 'being' Generation 1, just like IDW launched a new Generation 1 comic in 2005.

1984 cartoon is unambigious. Sunbow cartoon is unliekly to be contradicted int he future (Sunbow no longer exists.) Find a less ambiguious phrase. I'd be fine with 'Original cartoon.' There's no mistaking what that means, and we're unlikely to get a future Transformers line called Transformers: Original. I give us 50/50 odds at a line called 'Transformers: Generation 1' in the next 10 years. -Derik 13:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The phrase 'animated continuity' is essentially meaningless. The Sunbow cartoon? RiD? UT? They are all continuities which are animated.

The phrase "animated continuity" appears as a header on pages that state right at the very top of the article which franchise it is talking about.

And again, let me go back my question about the UT cartoons. If we were to change the headers on G1 pages from "animated continuity" to "Sunbow continuity" wouldn't this mean we also have to change the "animated continuity" headers on UT pages to some production/animation company name? And which one would be used? Actas? Aeon? We've? Gonzo? I think this would only serve to potentially confuse people in a way that "animated continuity" or the alternative "cartoon continuity" would not. --KilMichaelMcC 14:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Ignoring for the moment all these digressions I think you clance on the best solution here. We should change the "Animated continuities" headings to "Cartoon continuity". It doesn't meess around with production companies, it doesn't confuse things with the Animated franchise, and it gets the point across just as clearly. All up for changing the "Animated continuity" headers to say "Cartoon continuity"?

I vote aye. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.235.142.128 (talk • contribs).

Derik seems to be missing that the "animated continuity" header is always a sub-header under a franchise designation of some sort. Still, I agree that something needs to change because that isn't always clear enough. Switching to "cartoon" instead of "animated" is fine with me, for basically the same reasons I advocated changing our disambiguation tags from animated to cartoon, plus it will remove the Animated vs animated problem. I think that simply adding an extra descriptor to the headings would do wonders. Instead of simply "Cartoon coninuity" sitting somewhere under a G1 header, "G1 cartoon continuity" for example. In most cases this wouldn't make much practical difference, but for characters that have appeared in cartoons from more than one continuity, like all the G1 guys that had cameos in BW, it helps keep things sorted. --Steve-o 18:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Derik grasps that distinction, Derik just doesn't think it's absolutely unfathomable that we get another cartoon set in the Generation 1 cartoon family.

But yes, changing the headers to 'Cartoon continuity' or 'G1 Cartoon continuity' (Advisable IMO, Jazz showed up in Cybertron and Armada in cameo...) would address the immediate problem.

But if we ever do get another cartoon in the G1 continuity family, I'm gonna be such an ass with the "I told you so..." -Derik 23:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The big mess of DVD versions

This is mainly to find out what transfers the non-Rhino DVD releases use. For a reference on the changes done for the Rhino sets, use this page (quick ref, on Rhino. Please help fill in the gaps. --FortMax 20:24, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

List of DVD versions

Rhino DVDs

Season	Video	Mono Audio	Stereo Audio	5.1 Audio
1	full of errors	N/A	mix or original and added SFX	added SFX
2	broadcast	N/A	mix or original and added SFX	added SFX
3/4	broadcast	original	added SFX	added SFX

Other releases

Company	S1 Video	S1 Audio	S2 Audio	S3/4 Audio
Mavrick (UK)	broadcast	Rhino 5.1 only	N/A	N/A
Metrodome (UK)	Rhino	Rhino 5.1, added SFX in every 2.0 track	Pt 1 - Rhino 5.1 and 2.0 Pt 2 - Rhino 5.1, only Kremzeek! has added SFX in 2.0	Rhino 5.1, 2.0 has no added SFX
Madman (AU)	broadcast	Rhino 5.1 only	?	?
Chinese bootleg	Rhino	Rhino (all)	?	?

Completion

Hey guys. Why you had to start completing the older series first and then move on? IG start working on Generation one and then start on the newer series like Beast series. Try Youtube to watch the cartoons.(Soldier 79 01:37, 20 October 2007 (UTC))

Actually, quite a few of us have complete or near-complete DVD sets. I myself own most of G1 and all of BW/BM.--Rosicrucian 02:56, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Final Nine Episodes?

The very long second season greatly expanded the cartoon's scope and cast. It breaks down very roughly into three segments: the first dozen episodes features the Season 1 cast; a second batch of episodes brings in the remainder of the 1985 toys; and the final nine episodes introduce the four combiner teams that formed the early entries in the 1986 line.

I note that the "final nine episodes" of season 2 includes "The Key To Vector Sigma, Part 2", but doesn't include "The Key To Vector Sigma, Part 1". Is this intentional, or should it be changed to "final ten" or "final eight"? JW 21:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, should be final ten, then. Basically KtVS and everything after it. -- Repowers 23:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Japanese Clipshows

The "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" series (ie, Japan's combined season 1 and 2) had 9 original clipshow episodes. I have no idea what the contents of them were, as every Japanese webpage I've come across merely addresses the fact that they exist, providing just the titles and episode numbers. I am not entirely sure of proper translations for the titles, but I'll put them up in Japanese here (in Japanese airing order) until we figure out how to address them. (Note: Since a few of these titles are essentially synonymous with one another, my off-the-cuff attempts here to add variety to the translation may result in severe variation from my original translations. Pick a reading you prefer.)

14. トランスフォーマー誕生！

55. 果てしなき戦い

56. ダイノボット島の死闘

57. 巨人兵デバスター

58. おわりなき死闘

69. 地球最大の危機

70. セイバートニウムを求めて

71. スタントロンＶＳエアーボット

72. コンバットロンの反逆

--Monzo 08:41, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I recall covering these in the episode guide I put together in 1994(!) for the Ten-Year Retrospective book David Kolodny-Nagy was compiling. While some of the titles make the general content obvious, darned if I can recall exactly which episodes each one used, but if you have that book (and knowing you, Monzo, I'm sure you do), you can use it to find out. (My copy is in some forgotten stratum of storage right now.) I can at least provide the episode titles:

14. Birth of the Transformers!

55. War without End

56. Desperate Battle on Dinobot Island

57. Devastar, the Giant Warrior

58. Never-ending Struggle

69. Earth's Greatest Crisis

70. Seek the Seibertonium

71. Stuntrons vs. Airbots

72. Revolt of the Combatrons

--Apcog 08:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah... unfortunately, Doug, I don't know what book it is you're talking about, so that's a dead end on that route. However, I believe Spengler owns both the Fight! and 2010 box sets, so perhaps he would be willing to check the episodes to see what clips they use.

(Also, what's with tacking that paragraph on to my original query?) --Monzo 11:49, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

You're kidding—you mean for all the esoteric stuff you've got, you never acquired a copy of the "Ten-Year Retrospective" book that came out at the first BotCon? I'm genuinely surprised.

As for "tacking that paragraph on," do you mean inserting my reply closer to your original post for the sake of context, as I did here? Is this considered bad form? I still indented properly to set it apart from early conversation branches...--Apcog 18:58, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Admittedly, I wasn't as into esoteric books until... maybe the past five-six years or so, and between that and not attending a BotCon until 1996, I can see how DKN's book would've escaped my notice. I think the earliest fan-produced book I have is either Fumihiko's TFs In Japanese Missions or Raksha's BotCon 95-themed issue of ConQuest.

As to the paragraph thing, I was mostly curious as to why you added (Note: Since a few of these titles are essentially synonymous with one another, my off-the-cuff attempts here to add variety to the translation may result in severe variation from my original translations. Pick a reading you prefer.) to my original inquiry. Where it's placed now, it looks like I wrote it. --21:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd been thinking about these a little bit myself recently. 2010 had two, too, as I recall... "Daniel's Adventures" and "Good's Desperate Fight," I believe. What makes them hard to list is the fact that both series were re-ordered from how they went in their original format... hey! What about a secondary Nav box, the way we've got two for US and UK Marvel issues? Then we can link the episodes up in Japanese order, and slip the clip shows in, as well as go from RoOP to the start of HM... - Chris McFeely 11:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

A quick whatzitsname on the kerjigger, and I've made these:

Template:Episodenav

Template:Episodenav

Or we could just call them "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform" and "2010," if we want to omit the "Transformers," as we often do. If there's no outcry against the notion, I might spend the evening putting these into articles. - Chris McFeely 19:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Hm. I'd drop the "Transformers" from F!SRLF to conserve space, but leave it for 2010, just because "2010" by itself is a bit supershort. I think the idea works very well, though, and IS the kind of information that the wiki ought to have. I might also suggest compressing the space between the boxes... as I've done on the example here. --M Sipher 19:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yyeah, I was thinking the whole FSLRFT was a bit long, but dropping the TF off the end makes it seem like... I don't know, an incomplete sentence? In as much as it's any kind of sentence at all. - Chris McFeely 19:22, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Would abbreviating it to "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform TF" be out of the question?--Apcog 18:58, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

On the episodes not aired in Japan

Is there any info on why those two Season 2 episodes ended up not airing in Japan or when the decision was made. Was the dubbing done at the same time as the other episodes and they ender up not getting aired, or were the dubs for those two and Rebirth done just for the Laser disc release?

Also, does anybody know the Laser disc episode order and if they contain the clip shows?

Finally, we probably need to have a episode list for the Japanese dubs given the different titles and completely changed broadcast order.--FortMax 21:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It's the only one of these questions that I can answer, but If I understand things correctly, the two episodes were indeed dubbed only for their LD release, since there were quite a few different voice actors in them. - Chris McFeely 23:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)