Separate Continuity?

So Siph brought it up and Steve-o and I talked about it for a bit... Anyway, how are we going to treat the characters from BotCon 2008? From what we know about the set, it's clearly just G1-but-evil, so I don't think it's different enough to pass off as a separate continuity family. On the other hand, it'd be cleaner to give them their own pages. Meanwhile, pages like Optimus Prime's are long enough that even his fiction sections need to begin being split off anyway.

What I think we should do, at the moment, is treat Mirror Optimus Prime as a split from G1 Prime's page. As.... Optimus Prime (G1 mirror), maybe? Also, uh, create some Optimus Prime (G1 cartoon) and Optimus Prime (G1 Marvel) pages and the like. Akin to Wikipedia, Optimus Prime's main page should have abbreviated versions of these sections which link to the full versions on separate pages. --ItsWalky 02:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not so sure I'm up for splitting the pages around. True, some like Optimus and Megatron are quite large, but some of them are also quite small. I just don't think that we should split up just because a page is getting large. We've discussed that kinda idea at Wookieepedia before, and we concluded that it would just be easier to keep it all at one page. -- SFH 02:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm also against splitting up large pages of main characters, since keeping it all in one page would help readers get the full history of the character (well as much as we've written) from the various continuities. Easier for editing too, if one doesn't need to keep track of two different fictional versions of the same character on two different pages (three if you also have to add a summerised version on the main Optimus Prime (G1) page).
As for Mirror Prime... how about we just call him Optimus Prime (Mirror)? --FFN 03:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Technically, he shouldn't be a new page, so long as he's clearly a G1 Prime. --ItsWalky 03:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps giving them Timelines parentheticals would be valid?--RosicrucianTalk 02:50, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Look who all's in the set... Prime, Jazz, Bumblebee, Grimlock and Starscream. Aren't all those pages already hideously long? --M Sipher 02:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC) And oh yeah. I'm against splitting up the Fiction sections. Toys into their own, yes. But I'm leery of splitting up Fiction. --M Sipher 03:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

So in ten years, when Optimus Prime's page is three times as long, that'll be okay? That sounds a little ridiculous. --ItsWalky 03:13, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
About fiction sections: What Walky and I discussed perhaps hasn't been clearly explained here: We're not saying to take the fiction section out entirely like we did with "toys". The idea is that in the case of very long articles (like Prime's), we can take, say, the cartoon subsection, create a new article out of it, and in its spot on the main Prime page just have a summary of the high points with a note "see this other article for all the details". (Of course, his cartoon subsection right now isn't especially complete anyway. He appears in nearly every episode of Seasons 1-2 but most of those events aren't mentioned.) Important stuff in the main article, excruciating detail in a separate article. Perhaps it's not quite time for that yet, but eventually it will be. Like Walky says, G1 Prime's fiction section is just going to get longer and longer.
About Shattered Glass guys: If we treat them as distinct characters with their own pages, I think "Shattered Glass" is the appropriate parenthetical. Definitely not "mirror" since that word doesn't seem to be in the description of the set. There should definitely be linking between the Shattered and normal articles, though. Perhaps even with the normal guys having a Timeslines: Shattered Glass subsection that says "see this other article for his evil counterpart".
--Steve-o 03:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmm...I suppose that's okay, if we keep the main highlights in the main article. But I also agree that now is not the time. -- SFH 03:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Then when? Optimus Prime's page, even sans toys, is already twice as long than is recommended. --ItsWalky 03:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Considering that we treat Universe Obsidian, Tankor, and Inferno as distinct characters with their own pages despite just being alternate timeline variations, then clearly the Shattered Glass guys should get their own articles. "Shattered Glass" would be my choice of parenthetical as well. --KilMichaelMcC 03:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Frankly, I've been against splitting those dudes up for some time. --ItsWalky 03:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I vote for these dudes getting their own pages. If they're "mirror" versions, they have completely different personalities and hence would need completely new profile writeups as well as fiction sections. If you wanna compare Tankor and Obsidian, they were basically the same dudes; they'd just made different choices along the line. This doesn't seem to be the case for the Shattered Glass guys. -- Repowers 21:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey, PacifistPrime here.

I just thought I'd chip in with my two cents, since I created these first Shattered Glass articles last night. I think we should keep the articles for these characters separate, at least for now. Although yes, obviously, it does appear to be the case that Shattered Glass is just "Mirror G1" (as it were), we don't actually know that yet. I mean, to be fair, I think some of us are gettng ahead of ourselves here. Until we know otherwise for sure, I'm of the opinion that we should treat these as separate characters (just like the alternate universe Optimus Prime from the Armada comic. I mean, if he gets his own page, then I think these guys should.

And I certainly think "Shattered Glass" is the preferable paranthetical, since there is (as yet) no other official term like "mirror" being used in relation to the set. Furthermore, it fits with our general naming convention of using the title of the character's native franchise/continuity, e.g. Thrust (Armada), Tankor (BM), Grimlock (Animated) etc..

Cheers, --PacifistPrime

Hey, PP, could you sign your posts with four tildes, so we can see what time you made the post? It helps for keeping track of discussions.
On-topic, we're staring at the fundamental problem of how "different" a continuity needs to be, to no longer be G1. The most inclusive definition seems to be, "If all the robot characters have the same names and approximate roles as characters from the G1 toyline, it's a G1 continuity. Unless it's the Movie." Time period is irrelevant, human characters are irrelevant, when and how the robots came to Earth is irrelevant, altmodes are irrelevant, the origin of the TF species is irrelevant . . . et cetera.
But, if want to include Shattered Glass as a G1 continuity, we need to drop "approximate role". Unless "who's the good guy and who's the bad guy" is not considered to be part of "role". JW 21:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, you gotta remember that part of the reason for the continuity family splits here on the Wiki is simple bookkeeping and convenience. The Movie has a big G1 influence; it could also be considered a ground-up reinvention; but either way, it heralded an unprecedented avalanche of new toys, characters and fiction. That alone was a good reason to separate it. By contrast, I don't think Shattered Glass will go much further than a story or two, some bios, and a small set of toys. -- Repowers 21:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
"part of the reason for the continuity family splits here on the Wiki is simple bookkeeping and convenience"
Granted. However, part of our current problem is that a lot of little things have added up to become a big thing. If OP (G1) was just the Marvel comic and the original cartoon, he'd be more manageable, but a bajillion little G1-ish bits have been added on to him. We can keep adding little bits on to him, or we can say that some of them are different enough to warrant a new page. The universe in which he's a murderous fiend fits that bill.
(Our criteria can't sensibly be size, after all.) JW 22:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh, yeah, I'm all for giving the characters their own pages -- they share names and bodies, but they have new personalities. But it sounded like some people are wondering if SG should be a whole different continuity family, which IMO is overkill -- I think it can easily fit under the G1 umbrella. I might have just misunderstood what someone was saying, too. -- Repowers 22:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Based on what is known so far about the set/story, I have the following positions:

  1. Shattered Glass should be placed under the G1 umbrella. Yes, Prime is now evil, but he's still the leader, etc.. His role isn't that different.
  2. Each Shattered Glass character should have their own character page, with links back and forth to their "regular" character. Despite thinking of Shattered Glass as being G1, I think that the character differences in concert with bookkeeping/convenience factors make splitting the best option. I don't want my Bumblebee fiction section to be full of all this stuff about "normal" Bumblebees and then in the middle there's this random evil Bumblebee who has no fictional connections to all the surrounding material.

--Steve-o 17:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that works. --ItsWalky 17:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Steve-o, I'm curious as to what you mean by "fictional connection". I mean, is the fictional connection between OP (IDW) and OP (Marvel) stronger than the fictional connection between OP (Marvel) and OP (Shattered Glass)?
(Of course, all this essentially gets back to the problem that OP (Marvel) and OP (Sunbow) are from two different universes, but were represented by the same toy(s), and came into being at the same time, so they're "the same guy". I can't find a way of disagreeing with that which doesn't lead to more problems than it solves. Like, those G1 toys who didn't appear in fiction — are they from the Marvel universe, the Sunbow universe, or somewhere else entirely? Bleh!) JW 17:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
"Connection" isn't really the right word, but it was the best I could come up with at the time. "Similarity", maybe? I mean, the Bumblebee fiction would read like...
"Continuity X: Bumblebee loves humans and does lots of funny and cute stuff to help save the universe. Continuity Y: Bumblebee loves humans and does lots of different but still funny and cute stuff to help save the universe. Shattered Glass: Bumblebee is hardcore evil and wants to kill you for no particular reason. Continuity Z: Bumblebee loves humans and does yet another set of funny and cute stuff to help save the universe."
And that's just not a sensible page. Makes way more sense to split him out.
--Steve-o 19:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Heya, PacifistPrime here again. I agree that the characters should have separate pages (I mean, if Optimus Prime (Worlds Collide) gets a page, then surely...!), but I'm unclear about the designation of the overall continuity/universe. Are we simply talking about category tags here, or something else? From a metafictional, rather than organisational, point of view I've always preferred (somewhat controversially) to have a more conservative view of G1 than the "everything but the movie" approach favoured here. In my view, broad issues of toy-accurate altmodes and basic storyline-premise/character mythology are pretty important, which is why I've always argued that the IDWverse and the MovieVerse are each different enough to all prior versions of G1 (even if they're not equally dissimilar) that they should both be considered to fall within or without the G1 continuity family. And, in developments since I originally aired this opinion, I'd say the same now goes for Transformers Animated, which is also evidently a deeply G1-ish universe.

Indeed, now that we've got Animated in the mix, I'd argue that it's become even less defensible that the IDWverse is being categorised here as part of G1 when these other two aren't. Although it takes some cues from the MovieVerse, granted, I think it's a pretty hard sell to deem Animated as being all that much more radically different from G1 than the IDWverse, given that both use almost exclusively G1 characters with non-G1-toy accurate designs and drastically different basic storyline premises, human characters and background mythos. Apart from a debatable organisational imperative to avoid splitting articles, I increasingly fail to see a reasonable rational for lumping IDW in with G1 when Animated and Movie are not.

But I digress. As far as Shattered Glass ' category is concerned, I think it should be regarded as a separate continuity but probably not belonging to a separate continuity family, at least until we know more.

Also, aren't we jumping the gun a bit with the Timelines categorisation? Sure, it's extremely probable that it'll get that designation, but shouldn't we wait until this is official?

Cheers, PacifistPrimePP 07:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Bring in the funny

Since this is all about evil twins, I submit that the article is in desperate need of a joke about how they will mainly be identified by their goatees. Anyone else?

(Clearly, however, it would have to be written so that its status as a joke is clear, lest anyone be misled) Buttbutt 01:09, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Just remember that Omega Trion would have no facial hair, unlike his good universe counterpart. --Blue Spider 05:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The comic

...oh God, there's comic preview pages on the Botcon site.

The whole thing is drawn to look like a G2 homage. Linestyle, coloring, everything.

It even has a huge sprinkling of Furmanisms.--RosicrucianTalk 05:11, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Is this supposed to be April Fools? I'm not seeing anything on the Botcon page. All I see is a drawing of a robotic hand on the TF Club main page. They say the comic previews will go up on the 3rd. --Detour 05:40, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Nevermind, found em. [1] --Detour 05:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Yeah. Not linked on the main site, but hosted there. These brought tears to my eyes. They're just made of 100% pure win.--RosicrucianTalk 05:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
This is unmitigated awesome. I love it. They've even got the Double Pretender spider in the background on the second page, wot? The good versions of the evil Botcon characters are pure hilarity.--MCRG 06:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Is that... is that Shattered Glass Cicadacon? Dude!
Edit: No... no, wait, I'm an idiot. Still bucket-loads of awesome, though - Semysane 07:17, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh lordy, they're trying to kill the Wiki.
We've got:
If they use both Dirges, I will kill somebody. —Interrobang 07:27, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
To keep things from cluttering up the wiki, I'd suggest a general Mayhem Suppression Squad page for those guys, seeing as they're only in one panel. Point out that they're Good-Alternate-Universe-Doppelgangers of their 'real' versions, link to said 'real' versions from there and call it a day. Omnibus 19:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Seems to be the most sensible approach. Should have a sizable trivia section explaining that every one of these was a convention exclusive.--RosicrucianTalk 19:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The whole "I, Grimlock, wot?" thing transcends cool into sublime. JW 11:25, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh my christ. They actually made this universe hilariously awesome. Way to fucking go, Savage & Co. -hx 13:56, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

If you ask me, this makes all the difference. All the goofiness of the concept of this universe, all the silly looks of the figures, all of this is vindicated in this moment with this the most sublime of convention comics. I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for the Diamond edition of this.--RosicrucianTalk 17:21, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
...well crud. It was just Sipher pulling one over on us. It could have been beautiful. I want blood, Sipher! Blooooood!--RosicrucianTalk 17:40, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I KNEW it was too well-written to be a Botcon comic! -- 17:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC) (Detour at work)

I dub this "Shattered Expectations"... though I don't think we're DONE with this goofyass take at all. At least, not if we have any say about it. --M Sipher 18:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

...So, horribly-dashed expectations of awesomeness aside, how Official are the April Fools' Pages? Does Shattered Glass Jazz get a "Shattered Expectations" sub-heading along the lines of the Marvel Comics Continuity/Animated Continuity divide where it says "He was totally G2ishly Evil Mr. T"? Omnibus 18:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I actually think we ought to do exactly that. Jazz talking like Mr. T is too much fun to go unchronicled.--RosicrucianTalk 18:53, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Depending on how utterly shit the finished comic is, I hereby present the possibility of forgoing "Shattered Expectations" (which could mean something better than what you expected) and using "Shattered Hopes" (which means "Man, this is shit"). - Chris McFeely 19:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

These definately need to be in there. Especially since Fun Pub now plans to go back to them at some point since the fandom that they thought would hate it actually loved these better than just about everything else they've ever done. :) Not sure the best way to tag them though. 19:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
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