Talk: Dion

Just wondering if the "Who is Dion?" bit isn't a bit too speculative? Really this should be a tiny footnote about the references to his origins. Sure, it's nice to note about the fan speculation -- but should it take up the bulk of the entry? I also the question of putting "Who is Dion" links on other character's pages considering there's no concrete links between these characters and Dion -- other than wishful thinking by fans. ---JHIAXUS.

I think the article is fine as it is. Fandom debate about who, if anyone, Dion got rebuilt into is pretty much the most significant thing about the character. --KilMichaelMcC 22:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. The Dion debate is too significant to the fandom (enough that Dreamwave's comics and the RID cartoon gave it lipservice) to ignore. --ItsWalky 22:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does Dion's color scheme and vehicle mode remind anyone else of Huffer? -- Hunter-113 00:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Huffer? Really?

I'll bow to others if they think so, but I really question Huffer belonging in the "who is" section. Magnus and Ironhide have been cannadates argued over since the internet was a yong trasnsistor, but I've never heard anyone suggest Huffer before. Sure, there's the color scheme likeness but that's all I see. Is there REALLY any argument to keep him in there?--ZacWilliam 02:39, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I buy it even LESS than I buy Ironhide or Magnus being Dion... and I don't think either damn one of them was ever Dion. This is the first time I've ever heard this little piece of badly-argued fanon. --M Sipher 02:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course not. But this article isn't constructed along sane lines. You could have Ultra Magnus walk up and say "Prime, you were my good friend Orion Pax when I was Dion, and I have to speak with you!" and people would still argue that this statement can't be applied to cartoon continuity. They're attached to Ironhide in their personal continuity.

Maybe the footnote would persuade them... but I doubt it. -Derik 02:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

That's three votes for "No Huffer," one more and I say he goes. (Not that it's particularly relevant but I'm a Magnus man myself. I'm sure the writers didn't imntend it, but who cares about that? It makes sense to me and fits the universe and the characters and, to me atleast, it just feels right. But eh, to each his own.)--ZacWilliam 02:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, the entire "Who is Dion?" section is ridiculous and should be trimmed down to consist only of the first two sentences, perhaps with the third tagged on (but with Huffer reverted out of the list). Spending even a second paragraph on the idea that Dion must be somebody important is way more than the idea deserves. --Steve-o 03:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

What? Even the stuff about how Dion/Ultra Magnus stuff was brought up again in Robots in Disguise and the Dreamwave comics? Whether the idea of Dion being somebody important is stupid or not, we can't really ignore that it's been brought up, officially, over and over. --ItsWalky 04:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, actually, I forgot those parts. Basically I want to minimize all speculation to as few sentences as possible. Making arguments for and against particular candidates strikes me as silly. However, I will admit that I am probably biased on this since the whole "Dion must be somebody" thing is a pet peeve of mine. On the other hand, everybody making a case for him being somebody is obviously biased, too. If there's anybody out there who considers themselves neutral on the whole thing, maybe they should be the one to do the revision. --Steve-o 16:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm for Dion not being anybody and being dead, and I wrote the original section. --ItsWalky 17:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, only with more profanity. --M Sipher 03:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I restructured the section to downplay Huffer a bit. I suppose the whole thing could stand to be reduced a bit, but as I said above some months back: fandom debate about who, if anyone, Dion got rebuilt into is pretty much the most significant thing about the character. So I have no real problem with the article reflecting that. --KilMichaelMcC 03:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I can live with the downplay of Huffer since he isn;t brought up as much as the other two. I also argee that the speculation of Dion's identity is pretty much the only thing that makes the character worth talking about. -- 69.182.245.28 03:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The reason I put Huffer in the article is because it seems to make to the most sense. From the discussion above I'm not the only one that noticed a similarity. Personally, I think Dion is kind of a loser that should never be mentioned in the same sentence as Ultra Magnus or Ironhide. On the other hand I don't feel the same about the Huffer connection. If the whole "Who is" section must go than so be it, I just thought since it was here it made sense to include Huffer as well. Just give it a some time, maybe a week, before deleting just the Huffer part so more than 3-4 users can comment. -- 69.182.245.28 03:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that you edited the section to say that Huffer is one of the most popular suggestions for who Dion allegedly was, despite it being something that you just decided right now made the most sense. Bad anonymous editor! --ItsWalky 03:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

My Bad -- 69.182.245.28 04:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

A note on the link

to JHIAXUS' site. I think JHIAXUS is being disengenuous in asserting that it's certain Dion is dead. I'm saying it's certain that he's not either- it's possible that he had died in the time Alpha Trion was rebuilding Orion Pax (though Ariel lived), but the Arielbots make repeated references to fixing Orion's friends (plural), even though they only mention Ariel by name. Slingshot: "We've got to find someone who can repair him, and his friends!" Air Raid: "He's not the only one: there are others back at the hanger- his girlfriend Ariel!"

Watch for yourself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt7W2IA7kKI —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Molybdenumtop (talk • contribs) 17:14, 3 October 2007.

Colors

I removed the "Dion and Huffer share colors" speculation on the basis that Huffer is lavender and Dion is bright blue, which are not the same color. As well, the "Alpha Trion/Elita One commando" that was previously mentioned in that section was identified as a female Transformer in the episode cast list - and was also lavender and orange, not blue. -- Monzo 18:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Whoops!

Sorry about the Wheelie speculation, I did not realise humor wasn't allowed here. I was under the impression that it was, for some reason. Or perhaps it is, but only for the inner circle jerk of wankers.

Really- what is this wiki about? Are you going for standards? If so, get out the watering can, because half the garbage on here is POV/speculation and wouldn't last 5 minutes on Wikipedia. Anyway, here were my additions (in quotes):

"Dion and Wheelie share an almost exact toy design, one being a repaint of the other. In this continuity, Alpha Trion was exhausted after building Optimus, Elita, and all the other robots in his shop that had been "pouring in since this morning." So, he cut a lot of corners... a lot of corners. Ironically, Optimus would not see his old friend until shortly after being brought back from death himself in 2006. (Optimus: "Who the f**k is this Autobot? Wheelie: "Wheelie's my name. Wanna play a game?" Optimus: "No!")"

(Ultra Magnus is a popular suggestion because his cab turns into a white version of the original Optimus Prime body design, and) "their alternate forms on Earth are also similar, suggesting that they were of the same "mold" (as indeed their toy models were.) It" would stand to reason that if Alpha Trion rebuilt both of them at roughly the same time they would have similar designs. More, Optimus specifically calls Magnus "old friend" when he passes the Matrix of Leadership to him. (Though, really, Prime calls everybody that.) To many, Ultra Magnus, being a large powerful character with a latinate name in a leadership role, just seems a fitting completion to a potential triumverate of Optimus, Elita, and Magnus as the first modern Autobots built by Alpha Trion. "Also noteworthy is the upgrade in characterisation in each case, from giggly teenagers to noble leaders. Post-G1 writers may have tended towards this continuity because due to nothing more than coincidence, it makes more sense in every meaningful way."

Other than the last sentence, what is so ojectionable, or out of character with the rest of the paragraph? The whole paragraph is speulation. The whole article's focus is speculative. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Molybdenumtop (talk • contribs).

1) You quote a Youtube video and present it as if it were canon. This is horribly misleading.

2) "Who is Dion?" is a very popular debate amongst Transformers fans, so much that it's been addressed in later canon. The debate consisted of a few very popular answers, which we present. Ironhide and Ultra Magnus (and to a much, much smaller extent, Huffer) are the hotly contested candidates for Dion, one of which has been hinted at, again, as I said, in later canon.

3) Your random, joking suggestion of Wheelie has nothing to do with the context of this article. We are not making up things whole cloth right here to "answer" this debate. This article only reports what fandom thinks and why.

--ItsWalky 21:35, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's address your arguments, even though they don't address mine:

1) the video I quoted was the G1 episode War Dawn. These quotes were from that show. (Do you understand?) If not, watch the clip, noting the quotes I've pointed out, then click on the link to J's site (the only external link on the Dion page,) compare his version of War Dawn to the one you just saw, and tell me who's being "horribly misleading."

2) Obviously- do you think I would disagree? I was under the impression that I was contributing to that, in making further arguments for why it might be Ultra Magnus. Is it not a valid point that Magnus's personality is more similar to Prime's and Elita's then Ironhide's? Does speculation have a place in this article? Some people seem to think so, some people think not, and others think only their point of view should matter.

3) Fine... yes, I got a little carried away, I still thought it was funny.

1)I think Walky is refering to the (Optimus: "Who the f**k is this Autobot? Wheelie: "Wheelie's my name. Wanna play a game?" Optimus: "No!") bit.... Which is clearly not in the actual cartoon, but a fan-made parody. If you think Prime is going to say "f**k" in the actual cartoon, then you're nuts. I'm not even sure there is an counterpart to it in the actual cartoon, since the same parody also has Prime bad-mouthing Rod, which didn't happen, as Rod was suffering from Brooklyn Rage.Shadow Mask Prime 14:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Sentinel Prime

What does everyone think of Sentinel Prime = Dion? In Animated we now have the "old trio" of Optimus, Elita-1 and Sentinel. Substitute Orion Pax for Optimus and Ariel for Elita and you're left with...Sentinel = Dion. He also has a similar color scheme: blue with yellow/orange highlights. --Xaaron 19:12, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I think people should stop desperately fishing for imagined patterns to explain irellevent things that do not need explaining. --M Sipher 19:28, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought that was the point of this page. I mean, there's a Huffer reference. --Xaaron 19:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this a good time to ask if anybody minds removing Huffer from the list? The only person I've ever heard with that theory was the anonymous editor from further up the talk page and I've become more and more disdainful of it every time I've seen the article since then. --Steve-o 20:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Animated Sentinel Prime is the same age as Optimus. In other words, he's not old enough to remember the Great War. There's no way he's Dion.

(Besides, the original Sentinel Prime is also orange/yellow.) --ItsWalky 19:31, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

But in no way is he blue, the dominant color of Dion and Animated Sentinel.

And I'm not saying Animated Sentinel was previously known as Dion millions of years ago, but that Dion could be the G1 cartoon version of this Sentinel Prime. G1 Elita-1 and BW Blackarachnia are not related at all, but Animated Blackarachnia is an alternate version of G1 Elita. And while G1 Dion is unrelated to any of the three comic versions of Sentinel Prime, Animated Sentinel could be an alternate version of him. --Xaaron 19:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Personal speculation is fine and all, but there's no Animated version of Dion nor any G1 cartoon version of Sentinel Prime, so it means nothing to the wiki.--Apcog 20:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Just stop. --M Sipher 20:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Geez sorry -- I didn't realize this was a forbidden subject. --Xaaron 00:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

But Animated Optimus Prime doesnt' remember the Great War either. Dion and Orpon Pax were the same age. Animated Oppy and Sentinel Prime are the same age. (I'm not saying he's Dion, I'm just pointing out your counterargument is kinda flimsy.)

This... hurts my head so damn much.--Rosicrucian^Talk 00:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Not so much a forbidden subject as a floodgate. If we allow one guy's personal theory in here, we have to allow another, then another, and another, etc, until the entire article is one giant fanwank. It's just a door that shouldn't be open. -- SFH 00:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Edit suggestions

I'd like to make some edits to the Who is Dion? section, but I want to know what others think of them before I do, given that the subject is a bit touchy:

1. Can the line about Dion - "Dyin" go? Aside from that it just makes me want to poke fun at Alpha Trion's name, the suggestion kinda seems to lose its logic by the above text about Ariel - Elita One. If Ariel was initially supposed to die too, why doesn't her name have any such similar ring if Dion was intentionally supposed to sound like "dying".
2. The part about the white version of Optimus Prime: this is the cartoon continuity and Magnus wasn't a partsformer in there, despite that his toy was. We could see his insides twice in the movie and there was no white robot there. So, can it go or at least be rephrased?
3. Would it be worth noting that like Optimus and Elita in TSFAT, Magnus more or less was confirmed to not know about his origins in Surprise Party?
4. Look, I like Huffer, but the idea he is Dion rebuilt sounds rather far-fetched. Unless Alpha Trion ran out of materials rebuilding the other two, I doubt he'd have passed up the opportunity for another powerful fighter for the Autobots, which Huffer really doesn't seem to be. Not sure what the result of the earlier discussion was (the thing seems to have been abandoned), but I think the Huffer suggestion'd better be deleted. 213.17.22.115 14:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The suggestions are there because they're by-and-large the most POPULAR suggestions, not because these are the most logical choices. The section addresses why buttloads of fans believe such-and-such and why. --ItsWalky 14:33, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, but I'm sceptic on Huffer being a "popular" suggestion. Aside from that person who originally posted it, I have never seen anyone going with that theory. Seen quite a few who believed Dion died, got rebuilt into Ironhide or Ultra Magnus, but the option Huffer I've only seen here. Proof? 213.17.22.115 15:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

But... the colors!

You know, if Dion had been rebuilt by Alpha Trion just like Orion and Ariel were, wouldn't he have kept his color scheme just like Optimus Prime and Elita One did? --Detour 07:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

The only reason that fucking section exists is because, apparently, lots of people grasp at straws. This straw grasping does not include Huffer. —Interrobang 16:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

The entire reason I made this was to make that point, that people grasp at straws. I don't see how Dion's colors equivalate to Huffer's orange and purple/royal blue. Especially since Dion's cab section is blue. --Detour 19:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Then... isn't this a moot point? I removed the section on popular demand. —Interrobang 22:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

My post had nothing to do with Huffer (hence a new section), it was to point out how silly it is to associate Dion with characters he has nothing in common with in terms of color, let alone personality. --Detour 23:09, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

1. I think the Who is Dion?-section should stay for being one of the bigger debates in the fandom and for being semi-mentioned on the pages of material featuring Dion=UM-Easter eggs. It's handy and logical to have a page somewhere that contains all information on the issue, including "counter-arguments".
2. The colour-thing should probably be mentioned in some way in the Dion=dead portion of the section.
3. Please enlighten me, how is Orion similar to Optimus or Ariel similar to Elita that Dion is not similar to Magnus(/Ironhide)? One of the reasons I wanted to do a bit of rewriting on the entire article is the utter bias against Dion that seeped through. Who the heck wrote the "War is pretty cool"-sentence? Or better, who assigned a sentence of Orion, "young" Optimus, to Dion? It was Orion who remarked that he didn't give a crap about a possible war, because he and his friends would be safe anyway. And that attitude of Orion I find far harder to reconcile with Optimus' care for everyone than what little we know about Dion (he did not believe there was a war going on, we don't know his attitude towards war) with, say, Magnus' personality. Personality in this case is barely an argument, because Orion-Optimus and Ariel-Elita are only similar because we've been told they are the same persons. 213.17.22.115 07:36, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that in the case of Dion, he was just supposed to die when War Dawn was created, like Ariel would've likely done if there had not been an earlier created character she could easily be written into, making her survival official. By coincidence, there later came a character Dion could be tied to, but both weren't created with the other in mind, causing a colour scheme mismatch that will just have to be overlooked for the "retcon" of Dion = Ultra Magnus (or the canonically unsupported suggestion of Dion = Ironhide).

I don't think there are any bots that have a similar colour scheme to Dion's. Huffer, in case this is about his removal, is orange and purple; Dion is orange and blue. The only one I could think of with similar colours is that bearded, feetless librarian from Surprise Party. And both he and Huffer don't make a lot of sense as Who is Dion?-options if you look at what Orion and Ariel became, nor are they popular suggestions. 213.17.22.115 11:34, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Huffer is orange and blue. I thought he was purple for forever, too, but apparently I just have blue/purple problems. --ItsWalky 12:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

No, trust me, you don't. It's purple, not blue. Huffer is not blue, and even if he was, just compare the two bots. If that's blue, it's nowhere near the same kind of blue Dion has. 213.17.22.115 13:55, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Sentinel Prime, yo. -Derik 16:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

This is what I'm sayin'! --Xaaron 18:10, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Too bad THAT argument breaks with Elita-1 not being pink. 213.17.22.115 18:30, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Either way you slice it, its still Optimus, Elita and Third Guy, and Third Guy has the same colors in either trio. --Xaaron 18:55, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

The toy is orange and blue. The cartoon model is orange and purple. Everyone can be right! -- Repowers 18:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Except for people who say "Dion got rebuilt into _____"! --M Sipher 18:38, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. The cartoon model is a different shade of blue, but still blue. 213.17.22.115 18:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I finda feel like a lot of the wangst on Dion could be bundled up with a summary note somewhere; "While some other continuities have drawn a connection between Dion and Magnus... the Sunbow producers were not shy about that sort of thing; if they intended that they would have spelled it out. Season 3 even had an episode about Ultra Magnus's creation, and lack of a birth date! Despite how suggestive circumstances may look in hindsight... making Dion and Magnus the same guy doesn't seem to have even occurred to the staff at the time. So while Magnus may indeed be/have-been Dion in continuities that came later (including some Generation 1 continuities,) within cartoon continuity he was not- nor was ever even the idea of making them the same guy. Any similarity... appears to be genuine coincidence."

You know, something like that only less... Derik-y. -Derik 21:45, 5 September 2008 (UTC)